# NFL Question - Personal Fouls **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 13, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055 "2010-12-13T23:59:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/21 "2010-12-14T15:00:04Z")
> [@GreedySmurf](#): > > As far as moving teams between towns it’s a vanishingly small chance of occuring in the two major Australian football codes (NRL & ARL). Primarily because the ownership structure of most clubs is very different from the NFL Franchise system. It’s rare to have an NRL club be privately owned, most (but not all) of them are owned by an associated Leagues Club, which are tied to a particular location. Offhand I can only recall one outright move for a club (which is in the AFL) and maybe 3-4 moves which were amalgamations with another club in the new location. (both AFL & NRL) Interesting. The only NFL team which really has no chance of ever moving is the Packers; they’ve been publicly owned since the 1950s (I own a share of stock), and the bylaws significantly limit how shares can change hands, and how many shares any one person or organization can own. All the other NFL teams are privately owned, either by individuals, families, or small groups of people – the NFL has a rule which limits how many owners a single team may have (the Packers’ ownership structure predates that rule, and was grandfathered in, IIRC). ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/22 "2010-12-14T16:49:21Z")
“Philly-Dallas” is a perfectly acceptable way to describe the game. As is “Scumbirds-Doucheboys”. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/23 "2010-12-14T17:21:45Z")
> [@sevenwood](#): > > Not this year, sir. Helmet-to-helmet hits draw penalties, every time. The NFL is trying (and apparently failing) to reduce the number of concussions suffered by their players. > > I believe that the rule itself didn’t change - just the NFL’s interpretation/enforcing of it. [Here’s a copy of Roger Godell’s memo](http://newyork.sbnation.com/2010/10/21/1766659/roger-goodell-sends-memo-to-teams-about-about-increased-discipline-for-illegal-hits) that started it all. Like I said, you are wrong. Read Ray Anderson’s comments in this column. > **[Sims Safe From Fine Despite Helmet Hit: NFL](https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/local/sims-titans-headfirst-hit-johnson/1858584/)** > > NFL official explains way Sims shouldn’t be fined or suspended after hitting Titans Chris Johnson. > [@](#): > > One hit that was questioned came in Tennessee’s victory over Philadelphia. (Johnson) was headed down the right sideline when he was slammed helmet-to-helmet by (Sims). No flag was thrown – correctly. > > Anderson explained that Johnson was a runner with the ball heading downfield and was anything but a defenseless player. Sims’ hit was well within the rules. > > “It’s never been an intention to legislate all helmet-to-helmet hits out of the game,” said Anderson, a member of the NFL’s competition committee and one of the league’s loudest voices about player safety. “We just are trying to make sure when a player is in a defenseless situation, he is not hit in the head or neck area.” ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/24 "2010-12-14T17:38:48Z")
Well, I stand corrected. I think. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/25 "2010-12-14T17:56:01Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Well, I stand corrected. I think. 🙂 Watching any play in any game should make it immediately clear that helmet-to-helmet hits are not banned in a blanket fashion. On every single play there are 4 or 5 guys at the line of scrimmage banging heads at the snap. That said, the NFL and their media partners have done an abysmal job of communicating what the expectation is to fans and what defines an illegal hit. The best I can gather is that the player has to be “defenseless”. That in and of itself is pretty vague but I suppose they want officials to use some judgment in being able to limit hits that are simply too vicious regardless of the fine print on the rules. Of course all that helmet stuff fits in with a bunch of other rules that have been forgotten about like spearing and the wonderful “unnecessary roughness” catch all. In the offseason the NFL really ought to go nuts defining some of these rules in more concise manners. I think there ought to be an “unnecessary roughness” penalty for late hits and generally being a jerk and an “illegal tackling” penalty that is defined to get players helmets in the right spot. Maybe a third call for defenseless player hits to make them distinct from late hits on the QB or out of bounds shoves. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/26 "2010-12-14T20:17:33Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > …Some teams do have unofficial nicknames which are sometimes used, but those are almost always based on the official nickname (Bucs for Buccaneers, G-Men for Giants, Pack for Packers, etc.) > > In this particular case, of course, it was more glaring because Phillies _is_ the official nickname of Philadelphia’s baseball team. > [@kenobi\_65](#): > > …The Houston Oilers moved to Tennessee in 1997 (they played in Memphis for one year, before the permanent move to Nashville), and changed their nickname to the Titans in 1999. > > …A number of NFL franchises have changed cities over the years (I don’t know how often that happens in Australian football, if ever). Usually, they keep the nickname in the new city, but, in a few cases, the team has also changed nicknames upon the move. Just curious, **kenobi** , but why do you keep referring to team names as their “nicknames”? 😕 The Phillies, Oilers, Titans, etc. are all team names, not nicknames. (For the Phillies, that actually was a nickname at first, but it’s been the official team name since 1890.) The “Bucs,” “G-Men,” “Pats,” etc. are nicknames. And the phrase “official nickname” sounds like an oxymoron to me. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/27 "2010-12-14T21:23:30Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Just curious, **kenobi** , but why do you keep referring to team names as their “nicknames”? 😕 Force of habit, I suppose. Though, I note that NFL referees rarely, if ever, make reference to a team’s nickname / team name when they’re making announcements. They usually use terms like “offense” or “defense”, or “visiting team”, but, when they do need to refer to a team by name, it’s almost always the city name. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/28 "2010-12-15T00:18:42Z")
The exception being when it’s the same city. It always tickles me to hear the refs say “Giants” or “Jets” when they play each other. eg: “The ruling on the field is overturned. The Giants are not charged a timeout.” Also, I’m pretty sure that officially, it goes \ \. So “New England” is the team name, and “Patriots” is the nickname. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/29 "2010-12-15T19:54:48Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > …Also, I’m pretty sure that officially, it goes \ \. So “New England” is the team name, and “Patriots” is the nickname. :dubious: I’m pretty sure that’s incorrect, because it doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. According to their website, the official name of the team is the “New England Patriots.” “New England” is simply an abbreviated form of “New England Patriots,” as is “Patriots.” Neither are nicknames. The only common nickname for the Patriots is the “Pats.” ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/30 "2010-12-15T22:10:49Z")
> [@robby](#): > > According to their website, the official name of the team is the “New England Patriots.” Hardly compelling. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/31 "2010-12-16T15:39:40Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Hardly compelling. OK–do you have a cite for your contention? ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/32 "2010-12-16T15:53:19Z")
> [@robby](#): > > According to their website, the official name of the team is the “New England Patriots.” > [@EllisDee](#): > > Hardly compelling. I’ll be more specific. The copyright notice on their [official website](http://www.patriots.com/) is the “New England Patriots,” and their [legal notices](http://www.patriots.com/terms/) lists them the same way. This seems like fairly compelling evidence to me. The team is owned by “New England Patriots LP” (a limited partnership), which is owned by Kraft Sports Group, which is part of The Kraft Group (a holding company). I’ve never seen anything, anywhere indicating that the official team name is simply “New England.” Where on earth did you get that from? ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/33 "2010-12-16T16:44:15Z")
The Bears are officially “Chicago Bears Football Club, Incorporated”. ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/34 "2010-12-16T16:46:43Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > The Bears are officially “Chicago Bears Football Club, Incorporated”. I’d like to hear Joniak say that on game broadcasts. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/35 "2010-12-17T01:31:40Z")
I’m talking about how they’re officially known by the NFL front office, not how they’re legally registered. (I think the Giants are officially named the “New York Football Giants.”) ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/36 "2010-12-17T01:45:55Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I’m talking about how they’re officially known by the NFL front office, not how they’re legally registered. > > (I think the Giants are officially named the “New York Football Giants.”) And it annoys me everytime they call them that on Sportscenter. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/37 "2010-12-17T01:57:23Z")
Why? As a Giants fan, I love it. ---
**Author:** ![Manduck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manduck/32/256_2.png) [@Manduck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manduck)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/38 "2010-12-17T02:05:12Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I’m talking about how they’re officially known by the NFL front office, not how they’re legally registered. > > (I think the Giants are officially named the “New York Football Giants.”) I thought that was just a Cosellism, now being perpetuated by Chris Berman. Cosell always called them the New York football Giants to differentiate them from the baseball team, which was no longer in New York by then anyway. One of Cosell’s annoying affectations. ETA: So then I Googled and found out that that apparently really is their official name. Cosell still sucks, though. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/39 "2010-12-17T02:44:48Z")
I can’t say either way what the NFL officially designates the location and, uh, “mascot”? portion of team names. I did remember a couple things: When I downloaded and processed the pro-football-reference database, the guy who runs it may have named those fields “team name” and “nickname.” That would obviously not be official, but it could certainly have cause me some confusion. (This was like 4 years ago, so I may be just conflating things in my memory.) Another thing is that some teams do seem to have “official nicknames”: Oakland A’s (Athletics), New York Knicks (Knickerbockers), New York Mets (Metropolitans), etc… Again, I have to concede that I really don’t know either way. I do maintain that the individual teams’ registered legal names aren’t what I’m talking about. I’m talking about, for example, when the refs get instructed how to refer to teams when announcing penalties, the league clearly instructs them to just use the \ and not the \. I think the league officially (internally) considers those terms to be “team name” and “nickname”, but of course cites would be hard to come by. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055.md?page=1)