# NFL: Stand for the anthem or stay in the locker room. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701 "2018-05-23T20:38:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/181 "2018-05-24T22:45:43Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > If the players all stay in the locker room, will the public reaction really be any different at this point? > [@begbert2](#): > > I think the proposal is of the ‘hyuk hyuk they don’t come out to play _at all_’ variety - which is amusing for us non-sports-goers to think about, but would probably result in some kind of legal action against the players if actually attempted, due to them refusing to honor their contracts and do their jobs. > > And since the entire and complete goal\* of all this hullabaloo to get those protesting black people out of sight I imagine they’ll go easier on players that hide in the locker room since that’s a preferred behavior over visible protesting, albeit not as optimal as just playing along. > > - Of the ire-raisers who actually have a goal Yes, your second suggestion is what I was getting at. I think that if players stay in the locker room for the anthem and then come out, people will still be mad/offended. The NFL has made it crystal clear why they would be staying in the locker room, so it will still be viewed as a protest/offense to god-fearing Americans everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/182 "2018-05-24T22:51:03Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > Yes, your second suggestion is what I was getting at. I think that if players stay in the locker room for the anthem and then come out, people will still be mad/offended. The NFL has made it crystal clear why they would be staying in the locker room, so it will still be viewed as a protest/offense to god-fearing Americans everywhere. It wouldn’t be as visible of a protest as kneeling out there in front of god and man, though. And it would be an _obedient_ sort of protest - rather than openly acting in defiance of tradition to send an explicitly nonoffensive message, this would be quietly obeying authority to send an explicitly nonoffensive message. There _is_ a material difference there. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/183 "2018-05-24T22:52:59Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > No, but I can compel an employee to serve a customer wearing a MAGA hat. idol > protest is respect Why do you think that? Do you think you can compel an employee to wear a “re-elect President Trump” button? I don’t. And I’m not sure there is a bright line between naming a candidate and using the candidate’s official campaign slogan, especially one that has received a Service Mark (like a trademark, but for a service rather than product). ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/184 "2018-05-24T22:55:49Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Standing is a ceremonial way to show respect. That is why people stand when a judge enters a courtroom or a bride enters the church. It used to be that students stood when a teacher entered the classroom and gentlemen stood when a lady enters the room. It is customary now to show **respect to the country** by standing and taking your hat off when then the national anthem is played. > Likewise not standing during a time where everyone else is standing to show respect is a calculated move to show disrespect. Pretending otherwise is like saying giving someone the middle finger is meaningless. _emphasis added_ Players who kneel are not expressing disrespect for the country. They are showing respect for the principles of our founding by protesting systemic failures to live up to those standards. Standing when a judge enters the courtroom shows respect for the rule of law, no matter your opinion of the specific judge. When the rule of law itself is systemically abrogated, protest is not only a matter of principle, it is a duty. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/185 "2018-05-24T23:04:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why do you think that? Do you think you can compel an employee to wear a “re-elect President Trump” button? I don’t. And I’m not sure there is a bright line between naming a candidate and using the candidate’s official campaign slogan, especially one that has received a Service Mark (like a trademark, but for a service rather than product). Maybe you misread and thought that I said that I could make an employee wear a MAGA hat. That is not what I said, I said I can compel an employee to serve a customer wearing a MAGA hat. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/186 "2018-05-24T23:12:24Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Maybe you misread and thought that I said that I could make an employee wear a MAGA hat. > > That is not what I said, I said I can compel an employee to serve a customer wearing a MAGA hat. To be fair, your sentence could legitimately be read either way. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/187 "2018-05-24T23:15:27Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Maybe you misread and thought that I said that I could make an employee wear a MAGA hat. > > That is not what I said, I said I can compel an employee to serve a customer wearing a MAGA hat. OK. I did misread it as: I can compel an employee to wear a MAGA hat while serving a customer. I think you’re right that you can compel an employee to serve customers even if the customer is visibly of a different political persuasion. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/188 "2018-05-24T23:19:06Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Did you read the article? > > The things you are stating in this post run afoul of anti-discrimination laws. Political parties/positions are not protected classes. > > From the article: I’m not seeing any court cases cited in that article to back up that person’s claims. The fact that certain employers have allegedly used intimidation tactics to get employees to perform political actions does no mean that they are legal entitled to do so. But that’s not even what my objection was. My objection was to the idea that there is no limit to what political speech an employer can compel an employee to engage in. If you know of a court case that says otherwise, I’m all ears. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/189 "2018-05-24T23:53:44Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Many employers don’t allow political activities and solicitation and such in the workplace. The NFL allows at least one political activity and that’s standing for the anthem. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/190 "2018-05-25T00:10:31Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > The NFL allows at least one political activity and that’s standing for the anthem. I think it’s one of those grey areas. It might be considered political speech, but it might be considered “ceremonial patriotism”. If it were up to me, I’d say it wasn’t political-- it doesn’t advocate for any particular politician, political party, or political issue. But I’m just not certain how the courts would rule. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/191 "2018-05-25T00:14:32Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Standing is a ceremonial way to show respect. That is why people stand when a judge enters a courtroom or a bride enters the church. It used to be that students stood when a teacher entered the classroom and gentlemen stood when a lady enters the room. It is customary now to show respect to the country by standing and taking your hat off when then the national anthem is played. …I can’t stand for very long. Its a health thing. So if a judge were to enter a courtroom I’d keep sitting down. And I’ve sat down when a bride enters the church. Thankfully I’ve never had to stand when the teacher entered a room, and “gentleman” standing for a “lady” is simply a ridiculous thing. So if you didn’t know I was sick, and if I was sitting while the bride entered a church, your assumption would be that I was choosing to be disrespectful? What is inherent in the act of standing that makes not standing disrespectful? And am I obliged to agree with your opinion? > [@](#): > > Likewise not standing during a time where everyone else is standing to show respect is a calculated move to show disrespect. They aren’t just “not standing.” They are taking a knee. The act of taking a knee, IMHO, is deeply respectful. The implication that it is a calculated move to show disrespect doesn’t match any of the public statements made by any of the players. Are you accusing all the players who have chosen to take a knee of lying? > [@](#): > > Pretending otherwise is like saying giving someone the middle finger is meaningless. I’m not pretending. Stop pretending that I am. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/192 "2018-05-25T00:24:54Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > President Trump and **Ashtura** and others were offended by the protests, and those feelings are just as valid as my non-offense. > I do not agree that the protests are inherently offensive, just because you feel offended doesn’t mean everyone should. Kneeling has never (before) been viewed as disrespectful, but I have to recognize that some where offended. The notion that Trump was offended by this supposed lack of patriotic decorum before someone told him to be is risible considering that [his emmigrant wife had to remind him to put his hand over his heart during a rendition of the national anthem at a White House function](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LN3fWF9nD_Y). The concept of Donald Trump, a five times draft deferee who has never served the public in any capacity other than giving his family name to a fraudulent real estate school and being the host of a reality television show, being some qualified arbiter on what is and is not patriotic (and who should or should not be allowed in the country) is like considering Elmer Fudd as an expert on hunting. As for **Ashtura** , who stridently insists this is all just ‘bad optics’ and has nothing to do with race (except it is a protest by predominately black atheletes about the systematic shooting of black men), it may well be that he is simply incapable of grasping the explanations provided to him, or that he is inflexible in his unwillingness to consider that there is a deeper context to kneeling rather than just giving offense, but it may be observed regardless that nobody ever challenged an entrenched cultural bias without offending someone, for the very reason that people who don’t want their biases challenged but are nonetheless embarassed about them will find some ancillary issue to be upset about. In this case, ‘taking the knee’, which is in virtually any other context a sign of respect, has been twisted into some kind of attack on veterans and patriotism by people who have every reason to shut down the conversation behind it. The idea that it would be okay if Kaepernick just used his influence to talk softly about the problems (even though conservative pundits complain all the time about celebrities using their fame to publicize causes) or support charities, but it is unacceptable to make a public spectacle of it (even though the extensive displays of military pride and hardware at sporting events is about nothing but public spectacle in service of politics) is nothing more than telling protesters to shut up and go to the back of the bus. It is absolutely manufactured outrage in service of concealing bigotry and an unwillingness to address a systematic social problem. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/193 "2018-05-25T00:30:06Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > COlin > Just to give a personal example (one NOT involving an athlete): I teach at an affluent, predominantly white high school. Our principal, my boss, is an African American male. If you met him, I think you’d describe him as “preppy.” The kids and faculty mostly love him. > > During last year’s Government class, when we were discussing Constitutional protections against illegal searches and/or police abuse, many of my students couldn’t grasp why such things were necessary. After all, to us middle-class white folks, the police are the GOOD guys, right? What school IS this? I taught at predominately white, conservative high schools, and whenever we discussed the Fourth Amendment, most students did NOT see cops as good guys but as teen-hating adults out to ruin their fun by “harrassing” them just for being teens. Every kid grasped why these protections were necessary. These are teens, after all, questioning, suspecting, and sometimes resenting authority. I hope you’re scrupulous, as I was, about keeping your own political views from coloring your approach and language and about objectively and accurately presenting BOTH sides of issues and stories. Otherwise, discussions are less than honest. And if you cover current events, students might not realize, for instance, that Kaepernick’s shirt showed _Malcolm X_ meeting Castro in Harlem when Castro came to address the UN and might not understand why Castro’s reception in Harlem was enthusiastic. I’m no fan of Castro’s, but I’m a big fan of ensuring students objectively understand why people do what they do before students make up their own minds. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/194 "2018-05-25T00:44:06Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > … > That is not what I said, I said I can compel an employee to serve a customer wearing a MAGA hat. It could even be read as k9bfriender is the hat wearer. But of course, that’s madness. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/195 "2018-05-25T01:00:17Z")
Some interesting points: > [@](#): > > **NFL teams are probably private actors, which would mean players do not have constitutional free speech rights in this situation; however, there are some bona fide arguments to the contrary.** While a court is likely to conclude that NFL teams are private actors, this is not certain. Indeed, one 1978 federal decision, Ludtke v. Kuhn, held that New York City’s involvement with the lease arrangement to the old Yankee Stadium transformed Major League Baseball’s decision to prevent female reporters from entering the Yankees’ clubhouse from private action into state action. By this same logic, one could argue that the substantial public funding for NFL stadiums, as well as the tax breaks offered to NFL clubs, could convert certain clubs into public actors. > > **According to the collective bargaining agreement, any team punishment is subject to internal arbitration.** In addition to the limits on NFL teams ’ rights to “fire” players based on the standard player agreement, the collective bargaining agreement allows players the right to challenge any such punishment via a formal arbitration process. So even if a team wished to take action against a player, the team owner might not have the absolute and final say in the matter. > > SOURCE: [Can The NFL Really Fire Players For Kneeling During The National Anthem?](https://www.forbes.com/sites/marcedelman/2017/09/28/nfl-trump-kneeling-national-anthem/#2f9b53d22976) ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/196 "2018-05-25T02:41:23Z")
[Oh No! Jesus takes a knee! He’s disrespecting GOD!!!](http://www.turnbacktogod.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/jesus-kneeling-down-241x300.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/197 "2018-05-25T07:29:01Z")
So…any objections to my mooning a passing Trump when they play _Hail to the Chief_? Yep, I absolutely disrespect him. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/198 "2018-05-25T12:02:23Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > The NFL allows at least one political activity and that’s standing for the anthem. Yep. I’m curious, though; when did the national anthem become a thing before sports events? > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think it’s one of those grey areas. It might be considered political speech, but it might be considered “ceremonial patriotism”. Just like “ceremonial deism”, there is no such thing as “ceremonial patriotism”. Standing for the national anthem, singing the national anthem, standing for the pledge of allegiance, and reciting the pledge of allegiance are all, in fact, political displays, to wit: patriotic displays. > [@](#): > > If it were up to me, I’d say it wasn’t political-- it doesn’t advocate for any particular politician, political party, or political issue. Actually, it does: the issue of patriotic display. > [@](#): > > But I’m just not certain how the courts would rule. Haven’t the courts been pretty consistent with finding against employers who penalize their employees because the employers don’t like the employees’ politics? > [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > So…any objections to my mooning a passing Trump when they play _Hail to the Chief_? > > Yep, I absolutely disrespect him. Well, [here is more fodder](https://www.yahoo.com/gma/nfl-players-dont-stand-national-anthem-shouldnt-country-112103158--abc-news-topstories.html) for your hatred of him. Trump thinks that American citizens whose political actions he doesn’t like should leave the country. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/199 "2018-05-25T12:06:58Z")
Whether we like it or not, standing vs kneeling for the anthem is now a political issue. Some things become political issues that didn’t used to be, and some things that used to be political aren’t any more (say, whether the Native Americans should be exterminated). When the President explicitly and viciously attacks and smears protesters for not standing during the anthem, then standing/not-standing during the anthem has become an explicitly political issue. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/200 "2018-05-25T12:54:19Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > You guys keep coming up with non-sequiturs? Any more? That’s the pledge of allegiance, not the national anthem. And it was in a school. Which has established case law behind it since 1943. Barnette isn’t about just the pledge. Its about compulsory participation in “patriotic ceremonies” Read the quote posted from the decision and tell me why that wouldn’t apply to the national anthem. It also isn’t specific to schools - although you could say that as a private organization, the NFL has some rights to compel behavior, the problem with that is that the NFL isn’t exactly a private organization. They benefit from some specific government policies (cough - stadiums built by tax dollars, for instance) that means that the court system can impose government standards on the organization. You could also say that since the NFL has said players can stay off the field, they aren’t compelling anything (I’m suspecting that is the lawyers covering their asses on Barnette). I also tend to agree that if respect is so important to the franchises and the fans, then why are the concession stands open? Would it kill them to stop the sales of giant pretzels for the five minutes of compulsory patriotism? Why aren’t people up in arms about that? Is controlling the behavior of a black man important but so is making sure you can exercise your God given right to buy beer and spill it down the front of your shirt during “rockets red glare?” Kneeling is a long established form of respect. In addition to kneeling in church, you traditionally knelt before a monarch, I think you still are supposed to kneel before the Pope. And that’s Western culture - Asians have even more kneeling in respect. Personally, I think its a far more powerful signal of respect, you place yourself close to the ground. It is more self abasing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=11)