# NFL: Stand for the anthem or stay in the locker room. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701 "2018-05-23T20:38:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/221 "2018-05-25T15:54:06Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Is there something inherent in taking a knee that shows respect? For an athlete on the field, yes. > [@](#): > > Either the players who are claiming different are really stupid or they think we are. There is evidence that they’re right. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/222 "2018-05-25T16:12:33Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > You quoted why he wouldn’t be standing. It doesn’t say why he went from sitting to kneeling. No, I’m not going to sift through a bunch Kaepernick quotes to find a point you are apparently trying to make. He’s said a lot of stuff on the matter. You are welcome to cite it though. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/223 "2018-05-25T16:15:11Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Kaepernick noticed that just sitting on his butt, which is apparently a common sight in football stadiums, was getting no attention (just like it doesn’t for anybody else), so he changed tactics, and started kneeling. . Nope. Not true. He changed to kneeling when Nate Boyer, a former Green Beret, got angry about Kaepernick’s sitting but, unlike most of K’s detractors, wanted to hear his side. [Boyer](https://www.npr.org/2017/10/17/558390590/former-green-beret-and-nfl-player-talks-about-take-a-knee-protests): > [@](#): > > **For me, that’s a sign of reverence. You know, people take a knee to say a prayer. And then also, military personnel, it’s very common to see an image of a soldier, or a marine, or an airman, or a sailor, take a knee in front of a fallen brother-in-arm’s grave to pay respects. So I just thought it was better, and it showed more about — that he’s paying attention as well, he’s not, in a sense, sitting it out. He’s engaged.** > [@](#): > > You ask “what about kneeling is disrespectful?” Good question. What about kneeling is about black people being shot?? What about standing is about the flag or the anthem or respecting the military? It’s symbolic, not interpretive. The kneelers don’t expect people to look at them and say, “Ah, protesting police police shootings of Blacks, I see!” You quote Kaepernick’s reason for not standing. He refuses to stand for a country that oppresses Blacks. That sounds more like a matter of conscience than a bid to start a national protest. Others joined him in solidarity. A solitary act of conscience became a protest when others joined him. > [@](#): > > Again, I personally have no problem with protest, and have no reason to find offense for the goings-on of a sport I don’t even watch. But if you’re going to protest, it should probably effect positive change. Rosa Park’s refusing to move is directly responsible for the improved outcome of busing integration. Colin Kaepernick’ kneeling is directly responsible for… what exactly? Rosa Park’s refusal to move was neither immediately nor directly responsible for bus integration. It sparked public awareness and led to the Montgomery Bus Boycott. Integration wasn’t effected until a year later. I agree that Kaepernick is not Rosa Parks, but public awareness was a key factor in nonviolent resistance throughout the Civil Rights movement. If the NFL protests don’t spark positive awareness, how much of that is on the protestors, and how much on those who, unlike Boyd, reacted with vitriol and little else? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/224 "2018-05-25T16:19:29Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is inconsistent. If refusing to stand for a judge is disrespect toward what the judge stands for, then refusing to stand for the anthem is disrespect toward what the anthem stands for. It is perfectly fine to think that the US is not worthy of respect for whatever reason you want to, but don’t engage in a calculated act of disrespect and then say you are being respectful. The hardest part of debates like these is that responses like this just assume that everyone disagreeing is being dishonest. It’s not a “calculated act of disrespect” just because you see it as disrespectful. I as a veteran don’t see it as disrespectful in the context it’s presented by most of the NFL player protesters. My opinion is just as valid as yours. They’re not all being dishonest; it’s entirely possible to honestly believe as they do, and I do, that kneeling in the context of this protest is not disrespectful. If you can’t consider the possibility that I, and they, might be honestly presenting our beliefs, then there’s no point in discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/225 "2018-05-25T16:20:15Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > No, I’m not going to sift through a bunch Kaepernick quotes to find a point you are apparently trying to make. He’s said a lot of stuff on the matter. You are welcome to cite it though. The point I am trying to make is, you said this: > [@Ashtura](#): > > Kaepernick noticed that just sitting on his butt, which is apparently a common sight in football stadiums, was getting no attention (just like it doesn’t for anybody else), so he changed tactics, and started kneeling. That is incorrect. If you are basing any of your opinion on it, then you should read why he started kneeling instead of sitting, and then re-evaluate your stance on it. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/226 "2018-05-25T16:57:41Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is inconsistent. If refusing to stand for a judge is disrespect toward what the judge stands for, then refusing to stand for the anthem is disrespect toward what the anthem stands for. It is perfectly fine to think that the US is not worthy of respect for whatever reason you want to, but don’t engage in a calculated act of disrespect and then say you are being respectful. [Jesus disrespecting God.](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7d/f5/a0/7df5a0d3e5f65ce8bf4866874a38449f--pictures-of-jesus-bible-pictures.jpg) [Patrick Stewart disrespecting the Queen.](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5C_Fa7mhHB8/T6FIvtDhb6I/AAAAAAAAQiA/hEOFpyVoIFI/s640/kneeling+stool.jpg) [Catholics disrespecting the Church.](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_jCLJb9lPZaQ/SUlNclCZDVI/AAAAAAAABog/zpU9LKJ3UAM/s320/kneeling.jpg) [Veterans disrespecting the graves of the fallen.](https://www.abmc.gov/sites/default/files/styles/homepage_carousel/public/galleries/Visit%20Rock%20Merritt.JPG?itok=K3asz8wU) [Monuments of disrespect to the fallen.](https://2dbdd5116ffa30a49aa8-c03f075f8191fb4e60e74b907071aee8.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/12553123_1467275820.7224_funddescription.jpg) And lastly, [Football players disrespecting the national anthem](https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/pVLqbJjT3cUkI_IroxEqRIoBfnM=/0x0:4344x2702/1200x800/filters:focal(1979x711:2673x1405)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/59829829/NFLKneeling.0.jpg) Sure. That’s absolutely how that works, right? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/227 "2018-05-25T17:09:58Z")
Speaking as a person who is human and has paid a certain amount of attention to human things, the following two statements are true. 1. Kneeling is a respectful gesture, unless you’re doing it because your shoe is untied. 2. Refraining from standing during the national anthem is disrespectful. So what happens when both happen at the same time? One of the following: A) Apathy. I don’t care what you do, I’m busy being respectful/disrespectful myself. B) Syntax error. It doesn’t make sense. ((Scanners head explosion.)) C) Syntax error. It doesn’t make sense. Maybe I should ask around and find out what’s going on. (Cue instant equal rights.) D) That’s a BLACK MAN doing it! Forget the respectful shit - he’s NOT STANDING!!! E) Syntax error. It doesn’t make sense. Maybe I should watch Fox News and find out what’s going on. -Forget the respectful shit - he’s NOT STANDING!!! ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/228 "2018-05-25T17:14:15Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > If you are basing any of your opinion on it, then you should read why he started kneeling instead of sitting, and then re-evaluate your stance on it. And I welcomed you to cite Kaepernick’s “sitting to standing” quote about what you’re talking about. I’m not going to re-evaluate my stance based off an assumption about what you’re talking about. That’s when people get into trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/229 "2018-05-25T17:15:36Z")
When on an AF Base and traveling in a car, when the National Anthem plays at the end of the duty day, the instructions are to remain seated in your car quietly. Is that disrespectful? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/230 "2018-05-25T17:16:42Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > And I welcomed you to cite Kaepernick’s “sitting to standing” quote about what you’re talking about. I’m not going to re-evaluate my stance based off an assumption about what you’re talking about. That’s when people get into trouble. It’s pretty much laid out for you in post #223. You should probably read it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/231 "2018-05-25T17:17:53Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Black people unjustly having their lives taken from them by police is about race, yes. That’s this And police are disproportionately killed by black people. It would be disrespectful to use the national anthem in a sporting event as a vehicle of protest for this. All of that is irrelevant to the fact that employees have no inherent right to use their place of employment as a location for protest. If a player wants to burn down his own merchandising franchise that’s their call. They can do so unconnected with their employer and lose money to their heart’s content. What they do on the field reflects on the team and the sport and that’s not the function of the team or the sport. Not only is the team not obligated to agree with them they have the right to disassociate themselves from the activity up to and including firing them. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/232 "2018-05-25T17:20:13Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Speaking as a person who is human and has paid a certain amount of attention to human things, the following two statements are true. > > 1. Kneeling is a respectful gesture, unless you’re doing it because your shoe is untied. > 2. Refraining from standing during the national anthem is disrespectful. > > So what happens when both happen at the same time? One of the following: > > A) Apathy. I don’t care what you do, I’m busy being respectful/disrespectful myself. > B) Syntax error. It doesn’t make sense. ((Scanners head explosion.)) > C) Syntax error. It doesn’t make sense. Maybe I should ask around and find out what’s going on. (Cue instant equal rights.) > D) That’s a BLACK MAN doing it! Forget the respectful shit - he’s NOT STANDING!!! > E) Syntax error. It doesn’t make sense. Maybe I should watch Fox News and find out what’s going on. -Forget the respectful shit - he’s NOT STANDING!!! But the second is not a universally agreed on truth. Its an opinion - it is true for you - but it may not be true for the people doing it, or other people watching it. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/233 "2018-05-25T17:24:28Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > But the second is not a universally agreed on truth. Its an opinion - it is true for you - but it may not be true for the people doing it, or other people watching it. The first is a far less agreed upon truth. Kneeling has _universally and unambiguously_ meant respect for hundreds of years with no exceptions - until this moronic racist bullshit came up and started deliberately trying to twist its meaning. This flag standing junk is a flash in the pan by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/234 "2018-05-25T17:24:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What they do on the field reflects on the team and the sport and that’s not the function of the team or the sport. Not only is the team not obligated to agree with them **they have the right to disassociate themselves from the activity up to and including firing them.** Bolding mine. No they don’t - the team has the right to disassociate themselves from the activity up to and including the options laid out in the collective bargaining agreement. The point has been made over and over in these threads that NFL contracts are not at-will employment arrangements, and it’s disingenuous to argue as if they were. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/235 "2018-05-25T17:27:03Z")
This anthem stuff really pushes a lot of buttons for Americans, wot? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/236 "2018-05-25T17:27:32Z")
You know, if the NFL players wanted to show disrespect, there are more obvious ways to do so than performing a gesture that is often used to show respect. For instance, if they were standing for the national anthem while flipping the bird, that would be almost universally agreed to be done to disrespect the flag/nation/anthem. If they turned and dropped trou, that would be a fairly obvious sign of disrespect. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/237 "2018-05-25T17:29:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And police are disproportionately killed by black people. Stop. Right. There. According to data released by the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, as of Thursday, 128 officers had died in the line of duty in 2017. \*\*Forty-four of them were shot and killed. \*\*This is a 10 percent decrease from last year, which had 143 deaths, with 66 shot and killed. BTW: That’s the lowest number in the last 50 years. This isn’t an epidemic. The FBI reports that 46 police officers were “feloniously” killed in the line of duty in 2017, down from 66 in 2016. These numbers exclude accidents. **I don’t see any stats on how they were disproportionately killed by black people. Do you have any cites on this?** Statistica says 987 people were killed by police last year, of which 223 were black. That’s 22.6%, or about 1.7 times their percentage of the US population. So Police kill 21.5 times more people than police are killed by others. Police shot 68 unarmed people, or 1.5 times the number of police officers killed. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/238 "2018-05-25T17:31:31Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > Bolding mine. > > No they don’t - the team has the right to disassociate themselves from the activity up to and including the options laid out in the collective bargaining agreement. The point has been made over and over in these threads that NFL contracts are not at-will employment arrangements, and it’s disingenuous to argue as if they were. Unless the contract expressly allows harming the franchise through protest then they can be fired for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/239 "2018-05-25T17:34:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Unless the contract expressly allows harming the franchise through protest then they can be fired for doing so. That’s not really how most contracts work. The circumstances that allow for a dismissal, and the hoops that one has to just through to do so, are laid out. Unless the player specifically punches an explicit “exit stage left, do not pass go, do not collect $200 of severance pay” button, then _at the very least_ hoops will need to be jumped through. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/240 "2018-05-25T17:46:36Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > It’s pretty much laid out for you in post #223. You should probably read it. I honestly find Boyer’s conversation with Kaepernic to be completely tangential to wether or not it was a good idea. Honestly, if I wanted to stage a protest, Boyer’s literally the _last person I would go to_ for advice, because he is absolutely a terrible prognosticator. Some quotes from the article: > [@](#): > > I’m pointed at and looked to as the guy who told him to kneel. Like I called Colin and said, “Hey man, you should protest police brutality, why don’t you take a knee?” Which is totally not even close to the truth… > > It’s tough because there’s — a lot of the people I served alongside, you know, literally fought alongside, that don’t understand the whole story, and then are hitting me up like: “Look what you did, you’re a disgrace to the Green Beret, you’re a disgrace to us.” So here, you have a man, who wouldn’t be caught dead kneeling for the national anthem himself. A man that is taking shit from other veterans, people he literally fought alongside, people that he literally knows. Note: he doesn’t label them “racist pieces of shit”, or even “morons”. He labels them as people that “don’t understand the whole story”. Which is a tacit admission that maybe splitting up your protest into an abstraction that requires homework to “understand the whole story” is maybe not a great protest tactic. > [@](#): > > Then we’ve got, outside the Ravens stadium last week, there was a huge demonstration where hundreds of people — at least — gathered together and they were all taking a knee during the anthem outside the stadium. And I look at that image and I think “Oh my gosh, what did I do?” Does he sound happy about that? Does he sound happy about the legacy of his advice to Colin? Because, to me, he doesn’t sound happy about it. Not at all. My guess is, and I’m just taking a guess, is that if Boyer was a _good_ prognosticator, and could see the shitstorm this thing caused, the NFL tanking by almost all metrics, Kap being unemployed, Trump using it as propaganda, fining teams, and the “division and hate and anger” (which I think most people would agree has gotten _worse_, not _better_), I’m pretty sure he would have said, “You know what? Maybe we should tweak this kneeling idea a bit.” But hey, that’s just me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=13)