# NFL: Stand for the anthem or stay in the locker room. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701 "2018-05-23T20:38:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/241 "2018-05-25T17:48:12Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Unless the contract expressly allows harming the franchise through protest then they can be fired for doing so. NFL players can’t be fired. Most NFL players can be unilaterally released from their contracts by the team for any or no reason, but that triggers a whole bunch of shit that’s often detrimental to the team. If it’s a vested veteran who was on the opening day roster, the team continues to pay his full salary for the year (and if he signs with another team for less money, he gets paid the difference). Any future money guaranteed by the contract is payable immediately, and those guaranteed $ plus any signing bonuses that have already been paid get accelerated and all hit the salary cap at one time. All of this happens because it’s a non-standard employment scenario. “Firing” an NFL player is fundamentally different than firing you (probably? I assume) or me (definitely). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/242 "2018-05-25T17:48:23Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > \*\*I don’t see any stats on how they were disproportionately killed by black people. Do you have any cites on this? [Cite:](http://www.newsweek.com/violence-toward-cops-skyrocketed-2016-60-percent-more-officers-killed-686102) 15 of 59 were killed by black people. that’s 25.4%. Currently the US population is 12.6% black. that’s probably an uptick of killings as a result of BLM violence. in 2017 the count of black people killed by police officers was 22.5% Regardless of the numbers the point is that’s the NFL is not a political entity. It’s a business. The behavior of players reflects on the team. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/243 "2018-05-25T17:56:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [Cite:](http://www.newsweek.com/violence-toward-cops-skyrocketed-2016-60-percent-more-officers-killed-686102) 15 of 59 were killed by black people. that’s 25.4%. Currently the US population is 12.6% black. that’s probably an uptick of killings as a result of BLM violence. > > in 2017 the count of black people killed by police officers was 22.5% > > Regardless of the numbers the point is that’s the NFL is not a political entity. It’s a business. The behavior of players reflects on the team. And I think their actions, despite all propaganda to the contrary, reflects in a good light. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/244 "2018-05-25T17:57:14Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > You know, if the NFL players wanted to show disrespect, there are more obvious ways to do so than performing a gesture that is often used to show respect. For instance, if they were standing for the national anthem while flipping the bird, that would be almost universally agreed to be done to disrespect the flag/nation/anthem. If they turned and dropped trou, that would be a fairly obvious sign of disrespect. If they really wanted to show some disrespect, they could [do this.](http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/209/880/c78.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/245 "2018-05-25T17:58:18Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > NFL players can’t be fired. > > Most NFL players can be unilaterally released from their contracts by the team for any or no reason, but that triggers a whole bunch of shit that’s often detrimental to the team. If it’s a vested veteran who was on the opening day roster, the team continues to pay his full salary for the year (and if he signs with another team for less money, he gets paid the difference). Any future money guaranteed by the contract is payable immediately, and those guaranteed $ plus any signing bonuses that have already been paid get accelerated and all hit the salary cap at one time. All of this happens because it’s a non-standard employment scenario. > > “Firing” an NFL player is fundamentally different than firing you (probably? I assume) or me (definitely). unilaterally released, fired, call it what you want. Ray Rice was made less employed by the Ravens and banned indefinitely by the NFL. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/246 "2018-05-25T18:01:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > unilaterally released, fired, call it what you want. Ray Rice was made less employed by the Ravens and banned indefinitely by the NFL. That punishment was issued under the personal conduct clause of the CBA, which provides option for the league to punish behavior that is “illegal, violent, dangerous, or irresponsible.” Not applicable here. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/247 "2018-05-25T18:02:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > …Cite:. This one? **VIOLENCE TOWARD COPS SKYROCKETED IN 2016 AND WHITES ARE MOSTLY RESPONSIBLE** That the one? Just want to be sure. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/248 "2018-05-25T18:03:39Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > I honestly find Boyer’s conversation with Kaepernic to be completely tangential to wether or not it was a good idea. Sure, but that’s okay since that’s not why it’s important to THIS discussion. It’s important because you said this: “Kaepernick noticed that just sitting on his butt, which is apparently a common sight in football stadiums, was getting no attention (just like it doesn’t for anybody else), so he changed tactics, and started kneeling” Which has now been shown to be completely incorrect. It would be cool if you could acknowledge that you were wrong on why K started kneeling instead of sitting. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/249 "2018-05-25T18:04:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > that’s probably an uptick of killings as a result of BLM violence. It might not be a good idea to ask. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/250 "2018-05-25T18:05:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If they really wanted to show some disrespect, they could [do this.](http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/209/880/c78.jpg) What about [making a shirt out of it?](http://ultimateclassicrock.com/ted-nugent-artists-wearing-the-american-flag/) That seems pretty disrespectful to me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/251 "2018-05-25T18:09:45Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > What about [making a shirt out of it?](http://ultimateclassicrock.com/ted-nugent-artists-wearing-the-american-flag/) > > That seems pretty disrespectful to me. In that picture, isn’t he technically facing _away_ from the flag while saluting? ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/252 "2018-05-25T18:17:23Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sure, but that’s okay since that’s not why it’s important to THIS discussion. > > It’s important because you said this: “Kaepernick noticed that just sitting on his butt, which is apparently a common sight in football stadiums, was getting no attention (just like it doesn’t for anybody else), so he changed tactics, and started kneeling” > > Which has now been shown to be completely incorrect. It would be cool if you could acknowledge that you were wrong on why K started kneeling instead of sitting. Yes. You’re right. That sentence was not correct. Happy? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/253 "2018-05-25T18:20:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > … that’s probably an uptick of killings as a result of BLM violence. Any evidence, or logic, for this claim? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/254 "2018-05-25T18:22:46Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > I honestly find Boyer’s conversation with Kaepernic to be completely tangential to wether or not it was a good idea. Honestly, if I wanted to stage a protest, Boyer’s literally the _last person I would go to_ for advice, because he is absolutely a terrible prognosticator. There are few who can accurately predict the future. If you refuse advice from anyone who cannot read the future, then you refuse advice from all. > [@](#): > > So here, you have a man, who wouldn’t be caught dead kneeling for the national anthem himself. I didn’t see where he says he wouldn’t be caught dead kneeling for the anthem. I don’t even see where he thinks that it is disrespectful himself. > [@](#): > > A man that is taking shit from other veterans, people he literally fought alongside, people that he literally knows. People that he knows that do not understand the whole story. > [@](#): > > Note: he doesn’t label them “racist pieces of shit”, or even “morons”. He labels them as people that “don’t understand the whole story”. Which is a tacit admission that maybe splitting up your protest into an abstraction that requires homework to “understand the whole story” is maybe not a great protest tactic. What homework? Seriously, how much does it take for you to find out that he is kneeling to protest the police killing of unarmed black men? Hey, you just learned that, and it took like 5 seconds. Now, if you mean “refuse to understand the whole story”, well, ignorance is curable upon contact with information. Willful ignorance does take a bit longer. > [@](#): > > Does he sound happy about that? Does he sound happy about the legacy of his advice to Colin? Because, to me, he doesn’t sound happy about it. Not at all. It doesn’t sound like he would have given different advice. It sounds like he is disappointed that people that live in the country that he fought for are so petty as to have such a conniption fit over someone exercising their first amendment rights of protest and redress of grievances. > [@](#): > > My guess is, and I’m just taking a guess, is that if Boyer was a _good_ prognosticator, and could see the shitstorm this thing caused, the NFL tanking by almost all metrics, Kap being unemployed, Trump using it as propaganda, fining teams, and the “division and hate and anger” (which I think most people would agree has gotten _worse_, not _better_), I’m pretty sure he would have said, “You know what? Maybe we should tweak this kneeling idea a bit.” It sounds like you are an even worse fortune teller than you are expecting Boyer to be. You buried the lead there. “Trump using it as propaganda”. If it were not for trump stepping in, and using it for selfish propaganda purposes, then it would have been a side conversation at best. The rest of the manufactured outrage comes from that. Do we have to avoid any and all activities that trump may decide to use as propaganda? Does that leave anything that anyone is allowed to do in the public sphere without fear that trump may decide to use your action as a way to increase the frothing hatred of his followers? > [@](#): > > But hey, that’s just me. No, unfortunately not. It is not just you. It is you _and_ the people that tell you what to think, along with all your fellow followers. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/255 "2018-05-25T18:23:50Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Yes. You’re right. That sentence was not correct. Happy? You make it sound like autocorrect made a spelling error or a misplaced a comma. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/256 "2018-05-25T18:27:02Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Yes. You’re right. That sentence was not correct. Happy? Yep, thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/257 "2018-05-25T18:28:26Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > To me the only real respect is that freely earned and given, make it in any way compulsory and it loses any meaning. Those Americans who think otherwise and castigate the players should dig a little deeper into the mindset of founding fathers. They’re interested neither in history nor reading. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/258 "2018-05-25T18:29:13Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You buried the lead there. “Trump using it as propaganda”. If it were not for trump stepping in, and using it for selfish propaganda purposes, then it would have been a side conversation at best. The rest of the manufactured outrage comes from that. > > Do we have to avoid any and all activities that trump may decide to use as propaganda? Does that leave anything that anyone is allowed to do in the public sphere without fear that trump may decide to use your action as a way to increase the frothing hatred of his followers? It was not a “side conversation” before Trump. Don’t be be obtuse. > [@](#): > > No, unfortunately not. It is not just you. It is you _and_ the people that tell you what to think, along with all your fellow followers. And who, pray tell, are the people that “tell me what to think?” I’d say you’re being presumptuous, but maybe you’re in possession of a mind reading device. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/259 "2018-05-25T18:32:03Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > And who, pray tell, are the people that “tell me what to think?” I’d say you’re being presumptuous, but maybe you’re in possession of a mind reading device. It is just our perception and, right or wrong and facts be damned, isn’t that what _really_ counts? ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/260 "2018-05-25T18:38:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You make it sound like autocorrect made a spelling error or a misplaced a comma. And you sound really pedantic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=14)