# NFL: Stand for the anthem or stay in the locker room. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701 "2018-05-23T20:38:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/261 "2018-05-25T18:41:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And I think their actions, despite all propaganda to the contrary, reflects in a good light. There is no propaganda involved and everybody has an opinion. what is relevant is the use of ones employer to further personal causes. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/262 "2018-05-25T18:41:48Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > And you sound really pedantic. Not me-The _sentence._ ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/263 "2018-05-25T18:41:58Z")
Welcome to the Dope, **Ashtura**. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/264 "2018-05-25T18:43:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is no propaganda involved HA! ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/265 "2018-05-25T18:47:07Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > It was not a “side conversation” before Trump. Don’t be be obtuse. You don’t think that trump massively increased the awareness of the action, along with polarizing it by declaring his perception? > [@](#): > > And who, pray tell, are the people that “tell me what to think?” I’d say you’re being presumptuous, but maybe you’re in possession of a mind reading device. I do like that your caveat that I may not be being presumptuous because I may have a mind reading device, as you are aware that if I had one, then that would simply confirm it. But, in any case, I don’t need a mind reading device, I have a word reading device. And I read the words that you type. And the arguments that you use, the faulty logic and refusal to consider that your perception of why someone is performing an action may be in error, that your perception is more important than the actual intent are a dime a dozen. You are not the one who came up with the arguments that you are using. You are not the one who was aware of the kneeling situation. You are not the one who came up with your own opinion as to what that meant. You are not the one who even understands what exactly it is that you think is offensive about the act. You are just following the lead of trump and his supporters, wherever they may take you. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/266 "2018-05-25T19:00:23Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You are not the one who came up with the arguments that you are using. You are not the one who was aware of the kneeling situation. You are not the one who came up with your own opinion as to what that meant. You are not the one who even understands what exactly it is that you think is offensive about the act. > > You are just following the lead of trump and his supporters, wherever they may take you. And you are wrong. Dead wrong. Thanks for confirming your presumptuousness to me though. I do not subscribe to cable, do not watch football and couldn’t care less about it, haven’t been to a venue featuring the national anthem in god knows how long, and my primary source of information on the subject is from written news aggregation services, which features content from a wide variety of sources. I’ve mentioned multiple times on this thread that I, personally, _do not find the kneeling offensive_. My primary argument on this subject is that it was ill conceived and easily open to misinterpretation and attack. And I maintain that assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/267 "2018-05-25T19:09:24Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Any evidence, or logic, for this claim? off the top of my head: 2016 - Gavin Long killing of 3 officers/wounding 3 while calling for violence in response to police treatment of blacks. 2016 - Micah Johnson - killing of 5 officers/wounding 9 because he wanted to kill as many white police officers as he could. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/268 "2018-05-25T19:16:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > off the top of my head: > > 2016 - Gavin Long killing of 3 officers/wounding 3 while calling for violence in response to police treatment of blacks. > > 2016 - Micah Johnson - killing of 5 officers/wounding 9 because he wanted to kill as many white police officers as he could. BLM has repeatedly and specifically denounced violence. Those incidents are no more the fault of BLM than murders of abortion doctors by Christians are the fault of Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/269 "2018-05-25T19:43:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Or, just don’t play the national anthem. But that would, of course, precipitate a snowstorm of protests to reinstate the ritual. Still, it’s a crazy ritual-- it’s a football game, not a patriots’ rally. IIRC, up until 2015 or 16, the US military actually paid to sponsor the anthem and other “patriotic” displays at NFL games. Not sure if the NFL thereafter sold rights to anyone else, but I wouldn’t be surprised. I generally don’t see the problem in declaring the anthem a part of the game in which employees are supposed to participate. What next, someone wants to go to the locker room during the coin flip because they disapprove of gambling? 😉 I’ve got no objection to an employer prohibiting certain forms of speech while at the workplace, wearing a uniform, during working hours. Of course, I’m covered by the Hatch Act, and can’t even place a partisan political sign on my lawn… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/270 "2018-05-25T19:47:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > BLM has repeatedly and specifically denounced violence. Those incidents are no more the fault of BLM than murders of abortion doctors by Christians are the fault of Christianity. I agree with what you’re saying but BLM has done a piss poor job of getting out in front of the violence and denouncing it. I really wish they had better leadership. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/271 "2018-05-25T19:53:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > BLM has repeatedly and specifically denounced violence. And yet the violence occurred. who would have thought a movement involved in the Furguson riots would inspire violence. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/272 "2018-05-25T20:06:05Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > I agree with what you’re saying but BLM has done a piss poor job of getting out in front of the violence and denouncing it. I really wish they had better leadership. I wish they were a perfect organization that could prevent all bad people from doing bad things, but this is a complicated world and I think that the vast majority of BLM are regular folk who see an injustice and are trying the best they can to change their communities and society. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/273 "2018-05-25T20:11:28Z")
Ooh, are we going to start blaming entire groups for the actions of independent individuals who are maybe possibly incidentally connected to them? This should be fun! ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/274 "2018-05-25T20:45:53Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/275 "2018-05-25T20:58:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And police are disproportionately killed by black people. It would be disrespectful to use the national anthem in a sporting event as a vehicle of protest for this. > > … ORLY? Cite? Even if true, police being killed generally results in perps being killed or charged with a crime. Mournful paradelike funerals to follow. Remind me how these issues are the same. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/276 "2018-05-25T20:59:18Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > And you are wrong. Dead wrong. Thanks for confirming your presumptuousness to me though. I am not the one who is claiming that not only do I know why someone is kneeling, but that they are lying when they say why they are kneeling. > [@](#): > > I do not subscribe to cable, do not watch football and couldn’t care less about it, Ah, but someone got you to care. If you don’t watch football, and “couldn’t care less” about it, then what brought this to your attention? > [@](#): > > haven’t been to a venue featuring the national anthem in god knows how long, Then you have even less idea of even what people do when the anthem plays. > [@](#): > > and my primary source of information on the subject is from written news aggregation services, which features content from a wide variety of sources. Right, the people that are telling you what to think. > [@](#): > > I’ve mentioned multiple times on this thread that I, personally, _do not find the kneeling offensive_. My primary argument on this subject is that it was ill conceived and easily open to misinterpretation and attack. And I maintain that assertion. So, you are just _concerned_ that this form of protest may be misinterpreted by people that are either unable or unwilling to take a moment to understand the reasons behind it, and would rather just make up their own reasons. You yourself find it to be a perfectly acceptable form of protest, because you do understand the reason behind it, that kneeling is not offensive, and that the players are not doing it to offend the flag, or the country, or the vets, right? If this is the case, wouldn’t it be more conducive to spend the energy that you have spent here trying to convince people that protesting in a way that can be deliberatly misinterpreted by people that don’t want to see people protesting is unwise, and use that energy to explain to the people that cannot seem to fathom a way to not lose their shit while they sit on their couch and see a black player kneel for the anthem? ---
**Author:** ![howierantz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/71e660/32.png) [@howierantz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/howierantz)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/277 "2018-05-25T21:29:52Z")
If you support the NFL decision, here’s your challenge… If you 1) don’t take your pregame potty break or run to the fridge during the Anthem, you may still post. 2) don’t answer your cell phone if it rings during the Anthem, you may still post. 3) stand and face your TV or an actual flag during the Anthem, you may still post. 4) Cease whatever conversation you’re having for the length of the Anthem, you may still post. As for me, I’ve stopped watching golf, tennis, volleyball, and bowling because they are SO un-American that they don’t even DO the Anthem. :rolleyes: Not at all! Where is the outrage? And I’m still trying to find out how often the Anthem is played at the White House and in the House and Senate and, if all present are required to stand and face the flag. Being such a vital expression of our love for our country, it should be required DAILY, don’t you think? Football and baseball players during the Anthem is a SHOW. The camera pans from the players to the flag and back again. The Anthem is about the Flag…‘our flag was still there’, ‘does the banner yet wave’. SHOWING full and unconditional, ‘no reservations’ love for the Anthem SHOWS that same love for the Pledge whose closing words are ‘with liberty and justice for all’. And that phrase is what the kneelers are trying to draw our attention to. Let’s make it true! ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/278 "2018-05-25T21:42:16Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I am not the one who is claiming that not only do I know why someone is kneeling, but that they are lying when they say why they are kneeling. I never said Colin was lying ever. I have direct quoted his reasoning. You’re clearly confused. > [@](#): > > Ah, but someone got you to care. If you don’t watch football, and “couldn’t care less” about it, then what brought this to your attention? I read the news. I am capable of drawing my own conclusions based off what I read. I would hope you can too. > [@](#): > > Right, the people that are telling you what to think. You still haven’t named a single person who is “telling me what to think.” You’re clearly being presumptuous. > [@](#): > > So, you are just _concerned_ that this form of protest may be misinterpreted by people that are either unable or unwilling to take a moment to understand the reasons behind it, and would rather just make up their own reasons. I’m not “concerned,” I know that has happened for a fact. The Boyer article confirms that unquestionably, unless you are positing he is lying. > [@](#): > > You yourself find it to be a perfectly acceptable form of protest, because you do understand the reason behind it, that kneeling is not offensive, and that the players are not doing it to offend the flag, or the country, or the vets, right? Yes, to all of the above. > [@](#): > > If this is the case, wouldn’t it be more conducive to spend the energy that you have spent here trying to convince people that protesting in a way that can be deliberatly misinterpreted by people that don’t want to see people protesting is unwise, and use that energy to explain to the people that cannot seem to fathom a way to not lose their shit while they sit on their couch and see a black player kneel for the anthem? From one rando on the internet to another, your suggestion is duly noted. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/279 "2018-05-25T22:01:35Z")
> [@howierantz](#): > > If you support the NFL decision, here’s your challenge… If you 1) don’t take your pregame potty break or run to the fridge during the Anthem, you may still post. 2) don’t answer your cell phone if it rings during the Anthem, you may still post. 3) stand and face your TV or an actual flag during the Anthem, you may still post. 4) Cease whatever conversation you’re having for the length of the Anthem, you may still post. > > As for me, I’ve stopped watching golf, tennis, volleyball, and bowling because they are SO un-American that they don’t even DO the Anthem. :rolleyes: Not at all! Where is the outrage? And I’m still trying to find out how often the Anthem is played at the White House and in the House and Senate and, if all present are required to stand and face the flag. Being such a vital expression of our love for our country, it should be required DAILY, don’t you think? > > Football and baseball players during the Anthem is a SHOW. The camera pans from the players to the flag and back again. The Anthem is about the Flag…‘our flag was still there’, ‘does the banner yet wave’. SHOWING full and unconditional, ‘no reservations’ love for the Anthem SHOWS that same love for the Pledge whose closing words are ‘with liberty and justice for all’. And that phrase is what the kneelers are trying to draw our attention to. Let’s make it true! Thank you, howierantz. Welcome to the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/280 "2018-05-25T22:16:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I wish they were a perfect organization that could prevent all bad people from doing bad things, but this is a complicated world and I think that the vast majority of BLM are regular folk who see an injustice and are trying the best they can to change their communities and society. I’t’s not complicated. Don’t demonize the police with racial hatred. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=15)