# NFL: Stand for the anthem or stay in the locker room. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701 "2018-05-23T20:38:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/281 "2018-05-25T22:20:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’t’s not complicated. Don’t demonize the police with racial hatred. Agreed. I’m glad that BLM doesn’t do this. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/282 "2018-05-25T22:40:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Agreed. I’m glad that BLM doesn’t do this. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/283 "2018-05-25T22:57:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > :rolleyes: Black people pointing out injustices by their police departments is NOT “inciting racial hatred”. Or do you think it is? Jesus, there was a troll on CNN’s Twitter feed the other day calling their article about the community bbq in Oakland ‘race baiting’ and ‘divisive’. Surely you don’t believe such things, do you? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/284 "2018-05-25T23:13:22Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Black people pointing out injustices by their police departments is NOT “inciting racial hatred”. Or do you think it is? We’ll pretend the ferguson riots didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/285 "2018-05-25T23:17:11Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > When on an AF Base and traveling in a car, when the National Anthem plays at the end of the duty day, the instructions are to remain seated in your car quietly. > > Is that disrespectful? I thought the driver was supposed to stop the car and get out, stand at attention until the anthem was over, then get back into the car and continue driving, while the passengers remain seated in the car. It’s been a while since I was on a base and outside during the playing of the anthem, and that was on an Army base. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/286 "2018-05-25T23:42:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We’ll pretend the ferguson riots didn’t happen. You mean the town where the police force was almost all white in a town that was mostly black, known to be corrupt, violent and racist? Where the local judiciary was determined by the Justice Department to be racist and farming the community for fines? That Ferguson? How dare the black people there be upset at the white racist police department violating their civil rights to the point where the community rose up against them. :rolleyes: Should I also point out that _someone_ has been killing off community activists there in a wave of unsolved killings the police don’t seem interested in solving? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/287 "2018-05-25T23:45:49Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If they really wanted to show some disrespect, they could [do this.](http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/209/880/c78.jpg) That is the most overtly craven display of pandering to one’s base I’ve ever seen. Had Obama done the very same thing, just imagine what the response would have been. There are quite a number of patriotic rituals regarding the American flag, not a one of them is looking like you’re having sex with the thing on stage. Aside: And why didn’t the folks in Florida complain that he didn’t molest their state flag; what does he have against Florida? Oh, [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Olympics_Black_Power_salute) is another protest regarding the flags and anthems (read the whole link). Here is a good bit of information from that link to ponder: > [@](#): > > In 2012, Australia formally apologized to Norman, with one MP telling Parliament that Norman’s gesture “was a moment of heroism and humility that advanced international awareness for racial inequality.” We are not robots, not even the athletes. People have their own reasons for participating in or not participating in any group ritual. Quite often these days when I do see a sports event, be it local school, collegiate, or professional, I see a military honor guard parading the flag. That is government sponsorship of a particular ritual and everyone has a right to participate or not participate in the ritual. As a veteran myself, I have no problem with the players’ protest or their manner of protest. It is their right and they are calling for the country to be better. What’s wrong with that stance? After all, aren’t those people complaining about their protest trying to “MAGA”? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/288 "2018-05-25T23:49:40Z")
Always comes down to the same old, same old. “Of course you can protest!” “Just not like that.” “Or that.” “Or that either.” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/289 "2018-05-26T00:09:02Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Always comes down to the same old, same old. > > “Of course you can protest!” > “Just not like that.” > “Or that.” > “Or that either.” Yep. It’s simply **DWB** ( **D** emonstrating **W** hile **B** lack). ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/290 "2018-05-26T00:28:56Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > I honestly find Boyer’s conversation with Kaepernic to be completely tangential to wether or not it was a good idea. Honestly, if I wanted to stage a protest, Boyer’s literally the _last person I would go to_ for advice, because he is absolutely a terrible prognosticator. > > Some quotes from the article: > > So here, you have a man, who wouldn’t be caught dead kneeling for the national anthem himself. A man that is taking shit from other veterans, people he literally fought alongside, people that he literally knows. > > Note: he doesn’t label them “racist pieces of shit”, or even “morons”. He labels them as people that “don’t understand the whole story”. Which is a tacit admission that maybe splitting up your protest into an abstraction that requires homework to “understand the whole story” is maybe not a great protest tactic. No, it’s a tacit admission that people attack other people without knowing the whole story. Boyer was angry, too, at first, but he took the time to ASK Kaepernick instead of rushing to judgment. > [@](#): > > Does he sound happy about that? Does he sound happy about the legacy of his advice to Colin? Because, to me, he doesn’t sound happy about it. Not at all. No, he doesn’t sound happy that so many of the people castigating him never bothered to get the whole story about his conversation with Kaepernick AND Boyer’s recommendation to kneel but instead turned on both of them. He may have thought most people had the integrity he showed. Finding otherwise was bound to be disappointing. > [@](#): > > My guess is, and I’m just taking a guess, is that if Boyer was a _good_ prognosticator, and could see the shitstorm this thing caused, the NFL tanking by almost all metrics, Kap being unemployed, Trump using it as propaganda, fining teams, and the “division and hate and anger” (which I think most people would agree has gotten _worse_, not _better_), I’m pretty sure he would have said, “You know what? Maybe we should tweak this kneeling idea a bit.” > > But hey, that’s just me. And I think more of Boyer than that. I think he’d have the courage of his convictions. He believed that kneeling is a sign of respect, as it has been for centuries. I doubt he’d stop believing so because other people rush to judgment. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/291 "2018-05-26T01:20:32Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > You mean the town where the police force was almost all white in a town that was mostly black, known to be corrupt, violent and racist? Where the local judiciary was determined by the Justice Department to be racist and farming the community for fines? > > That Ferguson? > [@Chimera](#): > > Always comes down to the same old, same old. > > “Of course you can protest!” > “Just not like that.” > “Or that.” > “Or that either.” That’s not true for me. I disapprove of those that riot as well as those that could have done something to prevent rioters but did not (although even the latter is not a majority of demonstrators even at events where rioting took place.) And, while I am ambivalent about the BLM as a whole (mainly disliking the condescension of their slogan), if there is any “correct” way to protest, taking a knee has to be it. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/292 "2018-05-26T02:10:29Z")
The NFL has the right to enforce this policy, but it could backfire. The players will probably look for other avenues for protest and they might include some the NFL doesn’t approve of. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/293 "2018-05-26T02:17:13Z")
Also a decent chance that it comes up in the NFL collective bargaining by the union. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/294 "2018-05-26T03:14:20Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > And, while I am ambivalent about the BLM as a whole (mainly disliking the condescension of their slogan), if there is any “correct” way to protest, taking a knee has to be it. How is “Black Lives Matter” condescending? It’s a response to a systemic attitude and practice that Blacks’ lives do not matter, but white lives sure do. > [@Chimera](#): > > Also a decent chance that it comes up in the NFL collective bargaining by the union. And it’ll get shot down because it’s unenforceable. How many jobs do you know of where your job description is to stand and salute when a particular piece of music is played? If the NFL owners try to force that through, I hope the players go on strike. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/295 "2018-05-26T03:29:03Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > while I am ambivalent about the BLM as a whole (mainly disliking the condescension of their slogan) I’d surely like to know how black people pointing out that their lives matter in a nation where all too many people don’t seem to think they do is troubling for you. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/296 "2018-05-26T05:37:59Z")
Is BLM an entity, a singular noun for a discrete group? A bit like OWS, more a reaction than an organization. Same way we latched onto a couple of kids as the “leaders” of the youth anti-gun movement. Its the way we think about things, like massive groups of people are characters with identities and personalities. OK, been a couple years, right? So, who is the leader of BLM? If you wanted to contribute to BLM, where would you send the check? Lot to be said for this approach to public protest: when they go to arrest the leaders, there aren’t any. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/297 "2018-05-26T06:30:30Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > You already hated the game before Kaepernick made the anthem an issue. So, what’s changed? > > Regardless,if Kaepernick thought at any point that he was making a positive contribution to political debate, you’d think he’d have figured out by now he was wrong. > If you give your Mom the finger, imagining its going to spark “dialogue” on adjusting your curfew time, you’re a fool. Kind of like a guy who thinks portraying the police as pigs is going to accomplish anything useful. > > There are a million ways a black athlete could use his fame to promote worthy causes. Disrespecting the flag isn’t one if them, and any smart person (yes, Kaepernick is very smart) should have known that. When it’s a flag that isn’t worthy of respect… the picture changes. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/298 "2018-05-26T11:02:05Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I’d surely like to know how black people pointing out that their lives matter in a nation where all too many people don’t seem to think they do is troubling for you. Communication is meant to communicate information. If it is not new information, then why use the words? If it is thought to be new information to me, something I did not know already, then it is condescending. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/299 "2018-05-26T11:05:41Z")
I have the same issue with “Blue Lives Matter”, because it’s also obvious that the majority of BLM people, as well as myself, respect police officers safety, and a different issue with “All Lives Matter”, because it’s also obvious that BLM is not saying Black Lives Matter _only_. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/300 "2018-05-26T11:36:55Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Communication is meant to communicate information. If it is not new information, then why use the words? If it is thought to be new information to me, something I did not know already, then it is condescending. It’s meant to highlight the belief (backed by good evidence IMO) that society generally treats black lives as less valuable than other lives. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=16)