# NFL: Stand for the anthem or stay in the locker room. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701 "2018-05-23T20:38:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/321 "2018-05-26T17:27:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > This makes no sense. How is black on black violence victim blaming? I’d rather talk about the topic of _this_ thread. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/322 "2018-05-26T17:30:12Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Pretending the failure within the AA community is because other people hate them does not explain the collapse in the education system. There you go again, putting the blame on the entirety of black Americans for the faults of a relative few. Does your belief that black people as a whole in America are responsible for the relatively few who are violent among them affect how you interact with black people? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/323 "2018-05-26T17:37:46Z")
**Magiver** , what would be an effective means of protest for African-Americans(I refuse to use the “AA” shortcut, because that is already in use by Alcoholics Anonymous). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/324 "2018-05-26T17:39:11Z")
There’s no such thing as black-on-black crime. What there is, instead, is _criminal_-on-black crime - by definition. And it’s the police’s job to stop criminals, not the community’s. Instead of criticizing everyone else, the police should do their job, and to do that, they have to gain the trust of the community they’re protecting. First step: stop being racists. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/325 "2018-05-26T17:58:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Many folks believe that today’s society is a perfect meritocracy, and things like racism and bigotry and oppression don’t exist any more. This makes it extremely easy to ignore the plight of the disadvantaged, since by this belief, any struggles and difficulties in life are one’s own fault. You keep saying this as if it has any meaning. Most folks DON’T believe society is perfect. At best we live in a country with unlimited opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/326 "2018-05-26T18:05:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You keep saying this as if it has any meaning. Most folks DON’T believe society is perfect. At best we live in a country with unlimited opportunity. When you believe that opportunity is unlimited, then that makes it extremely easy to dismiss the complaints of the disadvantaged – if society hasn’t limited their chance to succeed, then only they themselves can. On the other hand, if opportunity has limits for many folks due to inequities in society, then we need to fix our society before blaming all those who haven’t succeeded for their lack of success. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/327 "2018-05-26T18:22:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’d rather talk about the topic of _this_ thread. Great idea. As it applies to employees, don’t use your place of business. Don’t drag your employer into it when not working. So, anything that isn’t illegal or harms other people is available as an avenue for protest. Knock yourself out. In the age of the internet you can produce professional quality videos for almost nothing and get a zillion hits. Certainly an easy task for wealthy athletes. They have a ready made following, lots of off-season free-time, and money. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/328 "2018-05-26T18:45:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > When you believe that opportunity is unlimited, then that makes it extremely easy to dismiss the complaints of the disadvantaged – if society hasn’t limited their chance to succeed, then only they themselves can. On the other hand, if opportunity has limits for many folks due to inequities in society, then we need to fix our society before blaming all those who haven’t succeeded for their lack of success. My parents grew up in the great depression. They were “disadvantaged” by your definition. The were not enslaved by a welfare system because it didn’t exist on the scale created in the 60’s. That’s your enemy. That’s the fight. Restoring the nuclear family with parents who are successful and can pass on those life skills on to their children is the goal. It’s universal and not a racial problem. It affects more black people people there was a higher level of poverty in the black community when this was instituted. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/329 "2018-05-26T19:10:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s your enemy. That’s the fight. Restoring the nuclear family with parents who are successful and can pass on those life skills on to their children is the goal. It’s universal and not a racial problem. It affects more black people people there was a higher level of poverty in the black community when this was instituted. I understand this is your opinion, but this is just opinion, not fact, and many folks have different opinions. I think there are many facts and pieces of data (some already cited or mentioned in this thread, like the fact that so many black Americans report that they have personally been mistreated by law enforcement) that strongly indicate large-scale systemic and institutional bias and bigotry which serve as significant barriers towards the chance at success for many folks. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/330 "2018-05-26T20:36:22Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > So again, you’d much rather ignore all of the injustices black people suffer at the hands of a racist society and instead deflect the blame back on them for all their ills. > > Got it. We know who you are. You’re just confirming it here. You’ve heard of _confirmation bias_, haven’t you? Well, what Magiver is displaying here is _bias confirmation_. > [@Magiver](#): > > Great idea. As it applies to employees, don’t use your place of business. Don’t drag your employer into it when not working. So, anything that isn’t illegal or harms other people is available as an avenue for protest. Knock yourself out. In the age of the internet you can produce professional quality videos for almost nothing and get a zillion hits. Certainly an easy task for wealthy athletes. They have a ready made following, lots of off-season free-time, and money. Lots of free off-season time? Where do you get that idea? Or do you think their athletic prowess is simply a function of…nope, I’m not even going to finish that sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/331 "2018-05-26T20:36:46Z")
Choosing to deflect from other issues facing minorities in this country by continually bringing up other issues is just that - DEFLECTION. Magiver is refusing to face or address other issues because he’s fixed on deflection. Dude, everything you’ve said since then is just more deflection and obfuscation. Enslaved to welfare? Yeah, that speaks volumes. :smack: NO ONE is ‘enslaved’ by welfare. Nuclear family? Total bullshit and propaganda. Look back in time a bit, when people tended to die a lot younger. Lots of single parents because their spouse died in childbirth, or of cholera, or workplace accidents, etc, etc. We made it through just fine. The whole ‘nuclear family’ argument is something the religious right made up to attack the idea of gay people getting married and having children. The side benefit of shaming divorced women and widows into remarrying was just a bonus. Unlimited Opportunity? Blatantly false when some people have their opportunities limited by the color of their skin, their religion, by their poverty or any other of a multitude of reasons. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/332 "2018-05-26T20:45:20Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Nuclear family? Total bullshit and propaganda. Look back in time a bit, when people tended to die a lot younger. Lots of single parents because their spouse died in childbirth, or of cholera, or workplace accidents, etc, etc. We made it through just fine. The whole ‘nuclear family’ argument is something the religious right made up to attack the idea of gay people getting married and having children. The side benefit of shaming divorced women and widows into remarrying was just a bonus. [Daniel Patrick Moynihan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For_National_Action) was hardly a member of “the religious right”, and no one was talking about SSM in 1965. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/333 "2018-05-26T21:06:16Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > NO ONE is ‘enslaved’ by welfare. Wow. That’s amazingly stupid thing to say. And I mean really amazingly stupid. So the poor people who aren’t black and are poor on a generational basis they’re what? Stupid? Assholes? condemned by a witche’s curse? If you don’t have a strong parental background, and that includes the community at large, it creates a welfare state. I’m done arguing with you on this. > [@Chimera](#): > > Nuclear family? Total bullshit and propaganda. . And the black people I went to school went on to lead normal productive lives because they were… what? singular geniuses that all happened to arrive in my community by divine province? No. They came from a stable family background surrounded by other kids with a stable family background. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/334 "2018-05-26T21:13:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Wow. That’s amazingly stupid thing to say. And I mean really amazingly stupid. So the poor people who aren’t black and are poor on a generational basis they’re what? Stupid? Assholes? condemned by a witche’s curse? > > If you don’t have a strong parental background, and that includes the community at large, it creates a welfare state. I’m done arguing with you on this. > And the black people I went to school went on to lead normal productive lives because they were… what? singular geniuses that all happened to arrive in my community by divine province? No. They came from a stable family background surrounded by other kids with a stable family background. Stable families are great, and I hope policies will be put into place that make it easier to form and maintain them. Policies like universal health care, higher minimum wage (an actual living wage), covered mental health care, ending the drug war and treating addiction as a disease and not a moral deficiency, reforming the justice system, enabling prisons to rehabilitate and not just punish, since many/most of those folks have children to help raise when they get out, and much more . ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/335 "2018-05-26T21:15:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Wow. That’s amazingly stupid thing to say. And I mean really amazingly stupid. So the poor people who aren’t black and are poor on a generational basis they’re what? Stupid? Assholes? condemned by a witche’s curse? > > If you don’t have a strong parental background, and that includes the community at large, it creates a welfare state. I’m done arguing with you on this. Good, because you don’t actually have an argument here. Just name calling, screaming and insisting you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/336 "2018-05-26T21:28:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > [Daniel Patrick Moynihan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For_National_Action) was hardly a member of “the religious right”, and no one was talking about SSM in 1965. You sure that’s a great cite for this? “Moynihan argued that the rise in black single-mother families was caused not by a lack of jobs, but by a destructive vein in ghetto culture” ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/337 "2018-05-26T21:37:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Stable families are great, and I hope policies will be put into place that make it easier to form and maintain them. Policies like universal health care, higher minimum wage (an actual living wage), covered mental health care, ending the drug war and treating addiction as a disease and not a moral deficiency, reforming the justice system, enabling prisons to rehabilitate and not just punish, since many/most of those folks have children to help raise when they get out, and much more . You’re just shifting responsibility to someone else. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/338 "2018-05-26T21:41:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’re just shifting responsibility to someone else. It’s reasonable to talk about public policy and how it affects things like families. Slavery destroyed families – that was public policy. Ending it was also public policy. There are many other examples. If you think more stable families is a good goal – and I think it is – then it’s reasonable to talk about which public policies make it easier, and harder, to form and maintain stable families. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/339 "2018-05-26T21:48:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’re just shifting responsibility to someone else. You’re insisting that people are entirely responsible for themselves no matter how hard society shits on them or holds back opportunities for their group. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/340 "2018-05-26T21:59:03Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > You sure that’s a great cite for this? > > “Moynihan argued that the rise in black single-mother families was caused not by a lack of jobs, but by a destructive vein in ghetto culture” > > ☹ It’s not about whether you or I agree with Moynahan (or not). It’s about that fact that he was NOT a member of the religious right, and he was NOT trying to thwart SSM when he published his famous report in 1965. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=18)