# NFL: Stand for the anthem or stay in the locker room. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701 "2018-05-23T20:38:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/21 "2018-05-23T21:31:42Z")
Many employers don’t allow political activities and solicitation and such in the workplace. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/22 "2018-05-23T21:38:06Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Employers don’t have an unlimited right to compel employee speech. > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > How sure are you of this? > > [https://www.thenation.com/article/how-employers-already-compel-speech-from-workers/](https://www.thenation.com/article/how-employers-already-compel-speech-from-workers/) Of this I am absolutely certain. Employers cannot, for example, compel employees to call all black people “niggers”, or to chant “Jews will not replace us” on Yom Kippur (or any other time), or to salute each other with “Heil Hitler!”. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/23 "2018-05-23T21:39:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Of this I am absolutely certain. Employers cannot, for example, compel employees to call all black people “niggers”, or to chant “Jews will not replace us” on Yom Kippur (or any other time), or to salute each other with “Heil Hitler!”. Did you read the article? The things you are stating in this post run afoul of anti-discrimination laws. Political parties/positions are not protected classes. From the article: > [@](#): > > Hertel-Fernandez documented the ways in which corporate managers can tell workers to attend protests, write to members of Congress, and even donate to company political-action campaigns. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/24 "2018-05-23T21:47:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Those are not political in nature. Political speech is handled differently from commercial speech. I think that distinction is hard to support. What would you say is the likely legal outcome if a player tapes over the Redskins logo on his helmet because he considers it racist? And the owners would say that standing for the anthem is commercial speech, not political. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Or, just don’t play the national anthem. But that would, of course, precipitate a snowstorm of protests to reinstate the ritual. Still, it’s a crazy ritual-- it’s a football game, not a patriots’ rally. Ultimately, this problem is structural; it has arisen because of the wide political gap between many of the players and many of the fans. That mismatch is going to continue to plague the NFL, and any solution the owners pursue is going to risk offense to one side of that gap or the other. Saying that it’s a football game and not a political rally cuts both ways. Opponents of the protests have been saying that all along to try to shut the players down. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/25 "2018-05-23T21:51:34Z")
The fact that some players are forced into something they oppose means those players are going to come up with a response. These guys have trained endlessly to be tough and to never back down - it’s how they got where they are. The owners (and whoever is pressuring the owners) are going to end up looking like fools. (Which unfortunately appears to be accurate.) Perhaps worse is the way in which forced compliance with patriotism makes all American patriots look weak and insecure. Needing to force compliance is an obvious sign of desperation. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/26 "2018-05-23T21:54:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > (Although they might not be allowed to sue. The Supreme Court this week ruled that employers can prohibit employees from suing their employer.) That wasn’t the ruling of the Court. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/27 "2018-05-23T21:56:08Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I think that distinction is hard to support. What would you say is the likely legal outcome if a player tapes over the Redskins logo on his helmet because he considers it racist? I would say they have an uphill battle, because the name of the team is intrinsically tied into the team in a way that the national anthem is not. He would probably have to get the courts to rule that team name should be banned, which would be as difficult to do as getting the national anthem banned from the opening ceremony of the game. > [@](#): > > And the owners would say that standing for the anthem is commercial speech, not political. They might well do that, but I don’t see that as automatically being a successful argument. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/28 "2018-05-23T21:59:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The problem, as is so often the case nowadays, is Trump decided to get involved with it. He made public statements threatening possible government sanctions if the NFL didn’t do something to stop player protests he didn’t like. > > So protesting players can make the argument that this wasn’t really a decision made by the team owners; they can argue the decision was the result of government coercion. And that makes this a constitutional issue. > > Would the protesting players win such a lawsuit? I don’t know. But they would have enough grounds to get a court hearing, which means they can have access to another forum for their protest. (Although they might not be allowed to sue. The Supreme Court this week ruled that employers can prohibit employees from suing their employer.) Emphasis added. The SCOTUS did not make that ruling this week or any other week. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/29 "2018-05-23T22:03:03Z")
Someone on Reddit pointed out that if this policy was to make the controversy go away, it has a lot of potential to do the exact opposite, by highlighting those who decide to defy it. I look forward to groups demanding more out of the NFL after that, like a public statement of support for the armed forces and the president. I get giddy thinking of the dilemma. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/30 "2018-05-23T22:10:41Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > (Although they might not be allowed to sue. The Supreme Court this week ruled that employers can prohibit employees from suing their employer.) The Supreme Court ruled that federal law permits employers to use use arbitration clauses in employment contracts to prevent class action lawsuits. That’s one kind of “suing your employer,” I suppose, but their ruling doesn’t generically prohibit employees suing employers. Do you believe that the Court’s ruling in _Epic Systems Corp. v. Lewis_ has relevance to the NFL issue under discussion here? Can you explain specifically why it does, if you do? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/31 "2018-05-23T22:11:56Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Someone on Reddit pointed out that if this policy was to make the controversy go away, it has a lot of potential to do the exact opposite, \*\*by highlighting those who decide to defy it. > \*\* In the news, maybe, but not as visibly as kneeling, because a player who is in the locker room is out of public eye whereas someone who kneels in front of a TV audience of millions is being seen by millions. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/32 "2018-05-23T22:14:24Z")
I wonder if some can claim a violation of freedom of religion, I know some refuse to honor anything but God. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/33 "2018-05-23T22:18:18Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Employers can confine employees after they are off the clock for as long as the company deems necessary if the employer has a compelling interest, such as security. Why wouldn’t they be able to institute this rule? Huh? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/34 "2018-05-23T22:18:20Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I wonder if some can claim a violation of freedom of religion, I know some refuse to honor anything but God. That’d be kind of a hard sell if they haven’t been refusing to participate all along. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/35 "2018-05-23T22:22:15Z")
The teams might have been able to make an argument of “no political speech during work hours”, except that the whole kerfluffle arose because of some players _refusing_ to engage in political speech during work hours, and their employers forcing them to. Standing for the anthem is itself a political statement. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/36 "2018-05-23T22:31:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I would say they have an uphill battle, because the name of the team is intrinsically tied into the team in a way that the national anthem is not. So a team could rename itself “the Trumps” and make “MAGA” its logo, and compel the players to wear the slogan that way? ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/37 "2018-05-23T22:47:21Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > In the news, maybe, but not as visibly as kneeling, because a player who is in the locker room is out of public eye whereas someone who kneels in front of a TV audience of millions is being seen by millions. Yes, but now if someone does decide to kneel, the team gets fined, and there’s a million article about the team getting fined for someone kneeling. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/38 "2018-05-23T22:47:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The NFL announced that [teams will be fined if players do not stand for the National Anthem.](http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/23582533/nfl-owners-approve-new-national-anthem-policy) Players not wishing to stand are allowed to stay the locker room, but not on the field. > > I don’t know if this is constitutional, but would be interested in what our resident lawyers have to say. It’s not the government making the call, but companies can’t just make employees do anything they wish. > > I think I understand why they are doing this (it was supposedly a unanimous decision by the owners), because they think they will get more revenue, but I’m somewhat conflicted. The teams area a business and a business should have reasonable say about how it presents itself to its customers. But it’s really only an “issue” because the news media chooses to dwell on it. It does not bother me in the least if players choose to stand or not. > > So I guess I’d say “maybe good for business but not good social policy”. Why wouldn’t it be constitutional? If people can be punished for being secretly recorded or for expressing an unpopular opinion then what the NFL is doing is perfectly legit. A society with stricter and stricter speech codes due to fear of the unwashed masses can only be a good thing, right? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/39 "2018-05-23T22:52:37Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > So a team could rename itself “the Trumps” and make “MAGA” its logo, and compel the players to wear the slogan that way? Maybe. 😃 Seriously, I’m not really certain of the whole constitutionality issue, so I’m going to stop arguing about it and wait for the experts to chime in. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/40 "2018-05-23T23:33:21Z")
people are making some false assumptions here. First, the players are not regular employees. They are contract employees protected by a collective bargaining agreement. At will rules do not apply. The league has announced that this was a unanimous decision of the owners, but New York Jets co-owner Christopher Johnson has already come out and said that he will not require his players to stand and will pay any fines incurred by his players under this rule. The collective bargaining agreement requires that the players association be consulted about any changes to rules relating to the players, and they were not. and it’s still 4 months away from the season. . .seems to be to be a trial balloon by the league to see where everybody stands. all of this may be moot. mc [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=3)