# NFL: Stand for the anthem or stay in the locker room. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701 "2018-05-23T20:38:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/401 "2018-05-28T20:40:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Kaepernick said: “I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color.” > > It’s tradition to stand for the national anthem. Not doing so is a sign of disrespect. But you knew this. > He chose the later as a form of protest. You know something when Martin Luther King used to march for civil rights ( he never said I’m only marching for African American rights ) his marches were full of American Flags. Kaepernick is a dolt. He supports Castro, a poster boy for suppressing rights. Just suppose for a moment when you buy tickets for an event, you see a protest you disagree with? Would it make you happy? This can not become the new normal. Same the protests on your time in a public area only. Is that too much to ask? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/402 "2018-05-28T20:40:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > kneeling is not standard protocol for the national anthem. The “protocol”; _During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart._ Now, tell me how this is legally enforced, or when someone has ever attempted to enforce it, because frankly, it isn’t a law, there are no legal penalties associated with it and we already have constitutional precedents that such a law **cannot** be enforced. And let me know when they start shaming fans in the stands for not doing this. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/403 "2018-05-28T20:42:33Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > You know something when Martin Luther King used to march for civil rights ( he never said I’m only marching for African American rights ) his marches were full of American Flags. > > Kaepernick is a dolt. He supports Castro, a poster boy for suppressing rights. > > Just suppose for a moment when you buy tickets for an event, you see a protest you disagree with? Would it make you happy? This can not become the new normal. > > Same the protests on your time in a public area only. Is that too much to ask? And the already disputed propaganda continues. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/404 "2018-05-28T20:42:47Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Just suppose for a moment when you buy tickets for an event, you see a protest you disagree with? Would it make you happy? This can not become the new normal. > > Same the protests on your time in a public area only. Is that too much to ask? No one gives a shit if you don’t like other people protesting. We all have the right to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/405 "2018-05-28T20:48:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s standard protocol to stand during the national anthem. These 2 are facts and not open for debate. kneeling is not standard protocol for the national anthem. It is a deviation from this protocol and as stated was a sign of protest showing a lack of pride. I’m surprised this “kneeling is disrespectful” shibboleth is still making the rounds. I thought it had already become common knowledge months ago that a fellow player and servicemember veteran, Nate Boyer, [had persuaded Kaepernick to change from sitting to kneeling for the anthem](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/veteran-kaepernick-take-a-knee-anthem/) precisely because he viewed kneeling as a **respectful** form of protest. > [@](#): > > [Boyer:] “We sorta came to a middle ground where he would take a knee alongside his teammate. Soldiers take a knee in front of a fallen brother’s grave, you know, to show respect.” […] > > [Kaepernick] “After hours of careful consideration, and even a visit from Nate Boyer, a retired Green Beret and former NFL player, we came to the conclusion that we should kneel, rather than sit, the next day during the anthem as a peaceful protest. We chose to kneel because it’s a respectful gesture.” […] > > [Boyer:] “So when I talked to them, it was mutual. Me, him, and Eric Reid [said] “I think maybe taking a knee would be a little more respectful. It’s still a demonstration. You’re still saying something but, people take a knee to pray.” It is thoroughly documented that the kneeling posture was chosen for the flag protest as an overt mark of respect, in preference to Kaepernick’s original choice of just staying seated (which I concur **would** come across as disrespectful). ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/406 "2018-05-28T20:53:03Z")
Anything can be considered disrespectful if you want to put that spin on it. :rolleyes: Doesn’t mean that opinion is valid or the only interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/407 "2018-05-28T20:57:18Z")
Two other points that I think some folks are missing: 1. Something can be considered disrespectful but not considered bad. I see CK’s action as disrespectful of the tradition, but I don’t considering it to be a bad thing. He’s protesting something that he thinks is worth protesting, so good for him. But the request is made to stand, and if you choose not to stand, then you are showing disrespect to the tradition. 2. Taking a knee is not the issue. It’s acting contrary to the request to stand. It doesn’t matter if the act is to kneel, to do a headstand or to drop trow. You are declining to do what you have been asked to do, and what the tradition has been. What you are saying is that refuse to respect the tradition. And you might have a very good reason for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/408 "2018-05-28T20:58:06Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Anything can be considered disrespectful if you want to put that spin on it. Sure; what I mean is that I’m surprised that anybody still thinks that the kneeling posture is **intended** by the protesting players as a gesture of disrespect. It’s intended as a gesture of **protest** , but that’s not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/409 "2018-05-28T20:59:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > 1. Taking a knee is not the issue. It’s acting contrary to the request to stand. Key word: “request” “an act of asking politely or formally for something.” Not an order, not a law, not mandatory. Asking. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/410 "2018-05-28T21:00:46Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Sure; what I mean is that I’m surprised that anybody still thinks that the kneeling posture is **intended** by the protesting players as a gesture of disrespect. Sorry, that was aimed at JM, not you. I think you and I are in full agreement on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/411 "2018-05-28T21:01:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Taking a knee is not the issue. It’s acting contrary to the request to stand. It doesn’t matter if the act is to kneel, to do a headstand or to drop trow. Uh, yes, it definitely **does** matter to the message you’re conveying whether your chosen gesture of non-compliance is traditionally used to symbolize respect or disrespect. As I said, I think some people are mixing up the concepts of “disrespect” and “protest”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/412 "2018-05-28T21:23:47Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Uh, yes, it definitely **does** matter to the message you’re conveying whether your chosen gesture of non-compliance is traditionally used to symbolize respect or disrespect. As I said, I think some people are mixing up the concepts of “disrespect” and “protest”. It doesn’t seem to make much of a difference at all in this case. Most everyone seems to be lining up with their tribe. If you think his protest is legit, then he’s showing respect. If you think it’s not legit, you think he’s not showing respect. Generally speaking. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/413 "2018-05-28T22:56:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It doesn’t seem to make much of a difference at all in this case. Most everyone seems to be lining up with their tribe. If you think his protest is legit, then he’s showing respect. If you think it’s not legit, you think he’s not showing respect. Generally speaking. He can protest when he gets a permit to organize one, or do it on his own time in a public setting. That is his right. All more than half of the nation asks is let’s keep it civil and keep it away from paid events. Fair enough? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/414 "2018-05-28T22:57:49Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > He can protest when he gets a permit to organize one, or do it on his own time in a public setting. That is his right. All more than half of the nation asks is let’s keep it civil and keep it away from paid events. > > Fair enough? No one needs a permit to kneel. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/415 "2018-05-28T23:02:50Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > He can protest when he gets a permit to organize one, or do it on his own time in a public setting. That is his right. All more than half of the nation asks is let’s keep it civil and keep it away from paid events. > > Fair enough? Seems like the side ranting about disrespect isn’t being very civil about it. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/416 "2018-05-28T23:13:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No one needs a permit to kneel. With respect for the nation, he should kneel on his own time, not during an event people are paying for. Is that too much to ask? I guess you are for his support of Castro too? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/417 "2018-05-28T23:17:58Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > With respect for the nation, he should kneel on his own time, not during an event people are paying for. Is that too much to ask? Suck it up. This is hardly a world shaking issue. > [@](#): > > I guess you are for his support of Castro too? I dunno, should we be bothered by some of the white player’s personal opinions too? Or does that really have anything to do with this? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/418 "2018-05-28T23:20:34Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > With respect for the nation, he should kneel on his own time, not during an event people are paying for. Is that too much to ask? Ask all you want. As a veteran I find kneeling as a silent and peaceful protest against unfairness in the justice system a very patriotic display. > [@](#): > > I guess you are for his support of Castro too? This kind of nonsense doesn’t deserve a response. I take it you didn’t serve in the military, did you? ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/419 "2018-05-28T23:54:58Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > You’re assuming that kneeling during the anthem shows disrespect for the flag. It does not, nor does it show disrespect for the nation nor the troops that so many worship. Oh, bullshit. Of course it does. That’s the whole point. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Kap talked to a vet to make sure that his protests weren’t disrespectful. As a vet, I agree that kneeling as a peaceful protest is not disrespectful in the least, and in fact is entirely in keeping with the American tradition of peaceful protest. Others might disagree. Just like many think that criticizing Trump is disrespectful to the country. A vet. One vet. As a vet, I agree that it _is_ disrespectful. Does my vote cancel yours? I played my vet card on top of yours, so is the country required to agree with me now, or do you take precedence? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > How many different times, and in how many different ways, do you have be told that this isn’t about disrespecting the flag before you realize that this isn’t about disrespecting the flag? Tell me one time in a way that doesn’t stink of doublethink bullshit. Give me one, single explanation that’s not “This is an excellent protest against the horrific state of our nation, and in no way disrespects that nation!” Your wife is ugly. No disrespect. I wasn’t sure if I should mention how hideous she is, but I asked a husband, and he said it wasn’t disrespectful. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …how exactly is it disrespectful? Who made that decision, and am I obliged to agree with it? Kaep did. “I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses Black people and people of color,” Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview, If you don’t show pride in a thing you’re supposed to be proud of at a time when you’re supposed to show pride in it, that’s disrespectful. How many times, in how many different ways, does this need to be explained? > [@Slash1972](#): > > Can I go with you one Sunday this fall around to different bars and watch you tell everyone who is sitting down during the Anthem there that they are being disrespectful? They’re not breaking protocol. The players are. It’s a different situation with different people in a different place with different expectations. My local radio station plays the anthem every day at 12:00. I don’t pull over on the side of the road to stand at attention, and no one expects me to. I do, however, stand at sports games. People expect me to. You guys are trying really, really hard to act like you can’t recognize what signs, symbols, and gestures mean, like you can’t read subtlety, nuance, or nonverbal communications. I don’t know why you’re playing dumb. We all know what the point of kneeling during the anthem is. Let’s not pretend we don’t. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/420 "2018-05-29T00:04:49Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > A vet. One vet. As a vet, I agree that it _is_ disrespectful. Does my vote cancel yours? I played my vet card on top of yours, so is the country required to agree with me now, or do you take precedence? Huh? It’s okay to disagree. I’m not being dishonest. You see kneeling as disprespectful, while I see it as a silent and peaceful protest. I don’t believe that silent, peaceful protests such as kneeling are disrespectful. It’s possible to disagree on this without one of us being dishonest or lying to one’s self. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=22)