# NFL: Stand for the anthem or stay in the locker room. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701 "2018-05-23T20:38:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/421 "2018-05-29T00:07:17Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Kaep did. “I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses Black people and people of color,” Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview, …now hold on just a minute here. Didn’t you literally just say this mere seconds before you wrote this? > [@](#): > > A vet. One vet. As a vet, I agree that it _is_ disrespectful. Does my vote cancel yours? I played my vet card on top of yours, so is the country required to agree with me now, or do you take precedence? So Kaepernick speaks for everyone who is taking a knee? Kaepernick made the decision that the act of taking the knee is inherently “disrespectful” so therefore everybody who takes the knee intends disrespect? Do I get a vote in the matter? Can I play my “everybody” card on top of Kaepernick’s, because I happen to think that taking a knee is respectful? > [@](#): > > If you don’t show pride in a thing you’re supposed to be proud of at a time when you’re supposed to show pride in it, that’s disrespectful. How many times, in how many different ways, does this need to be explained? Why are you “supposed” to be proud of the national anthem? How does that work? Do you not think its possible to be “not proud” of a mere song, but very proud of the people that fought and died for your country? Who gets to judge whether or not something is inherently disrespectful? > [@](#): > > You guys are trying really, really hard to act like you can’t recognize what signs, symbols, and gestures mean, like you can’t read subtlety, nuance, or nonverbal communications. I don’t know why you’re playing dumb. We all know what the point of kneeling during the anthem is. Let’s not pretend we don’t. Its absolutely clear to me that kneeling during the national anthem is an act of respect. I’m not playing dumb. Do you think that I actually am “dumb?” ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/422 "2018-05-29T00:20:14Z")
I still can’t believe there are people arguing that it is more important to stand for a song than protest to try to prevent white cops from getting away with shooting black men in the face. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/423 "2018-05-29T00:33:26Z")
Worshiping the damned song is Idolatry. So is flag worship. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/424 "2018-05-29T00:35:43Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > You know something when Martin Luther King used to march for civil rights ( he never said I’m only marching for African American rights ) his marches were full of American Flags. > > Kaepernick is a dolt. He supports Castro, a poster boy for suppressing rights. > > Just suppose for a moment when you buy tickets for an event, you see a protest you disagree with? Would it make you happy? This can not become the new normal. > > Same the protests on your time in a public area only. Is that too much to ask? Yes. Why should anyone care if you’re not happy seeing people protest police brutality? ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/425 "2018-05-29T02:05:19Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …now hold on just a minute here. Didn’t you literally just say this mere seconds before you wrote this? > > So Kaepernick speaks for everyone who is taking a knee? Kaepernick made the decision that the act of taking the knee is inherently “disrespectful” so therefore everybody who takes the knee intends disrespect? Do I get a vote in the matter? Can I play my “everybody” card on top of Kaepernick’s, because I happen to think that taking a knee is respectful? No, Kaep speaks for himself. And he did speak for himself. And I’m judging his actions within the context of that speech. If you want to talk about someone else kneeling, name a name, and we’ll do that. > [@](#): > > Why are you “supposed” to be proud of the national anthem? How does that work? Do you not think its possible to be “not proud” of a mere song, but very proud of the people that fought and died for your country? Who gets to judge whether or not something is inherently disrespectful? :sigh: You aren’t supposed to be proud of the national anthem, you’re supposed to be proud of the nation. I know you know that, and I know you know that the anthem represents that nation. > [@](#): > > Its absolutely clear to me that kneeling during the national anthem is an act of respect. I’m not playing dumb. Do you think that I actually am “dumb?” I think you’re pretending not to know what a symbol is, and it shows when you act like I said you’re supposed to be proud of the anthem. You know that the flag and the anthem are symbols of the United States, so why act like we’re talking about pride in a song or cloth? See, look: > [@Chimera](#): > > Worshiping the damned song is Idolatry. So is flag worship. Hey, look, another person who confuses honoring with worshiping and confuses the flag and song with the country they represent. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I still can’t believe there are people arguing that it is more important to stand for a song than protest to try to prevent white cops from getting away with shooting black men in the face. I can’t believe it either. Tell me who it is, and I’ll get my pitchfork ready. Who’s doing that? Let’s get 'im. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/426 "2018-05-29T04:09:55Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > No, Kaep speaks for himself. And he did speak for himself. And I’m judging his actions within the context of that speech. If you want to talk about someone else kneeling, name a name, and we’ll do that. …then why did you choose to answer my question? My question wasn’t about Kaepernick. I asked “how exactly is it disrespectful? Who made that decision, and am I obliged to agree with it?” You stated Kaepernick made that decision. But now you state he is just speaking for himself. Can you make your mind up? Is it one of the other? > [@](#): > > :sigh: You aren’t supposed to be proud of the national anthem, you’re supposed to be proud of the nation. Why are you concluding that because someone chooses to kneel at the national anthem that they are not proud of their nation? Why are you “supposed to be” proud of your nation? At the risk of Godwin, if you lived in Nazi Germany in 1942 would you be proud of your nation? Would you support the obligation to be proud of your nation? > [@](#): > > I know you know that, and I know you know that the anthem represents that nation. Who are you to tell me what the anthem represents to **me**? You don’t have that right. > [@](#): > > I think you’re pretending not to know what a symbol is, and it shows when you act like I said you’re supposed to be proud of the anthem. You know that the flag and the anthem are symbols of the United States, so why act like we’re talking about pride in a song or cloth? I’m not acting. I’m not pretending. Are you calling me a liar? > [@](#): > > See, look: I’m looking. And the people you are quoting are not me, so I’m not seeing the point. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/427 "2018-05-29T04:10:18Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Your wife is ugly. No disrespect. I wasn’t sure if I should mention how hideous she is, but I asked a husband, and he said it wasn’t disrespectful. Dial it way back. I get the analogy you’re trying to make. It’s a bad one on multiple levels. Firstly because it’s unecessarily inflamatory and insulting. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/428 "2018-05-29T10:48:09Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Oh, bullshit. Of course it does. That’s the whole point. I say it isn’t, you say it is. We disagree, and that’s fine. But your opinion doesn’t get counted super-de-duper because you’re a veteran. > [@](#): > > If you don’t show pride in a thing you’re supposed to be proud of at a time when you’re supposed to show pride in it, that’s disrespectful. How many times, in how many different ways, does this need to be explained? If police are murdering people of color, then it most assuredly NOT a time to show blind pride in the nation. How many times must this be explained to you? > [@](#): > > They’re not breaking protocol. The players are. It’s a different situation with different people in a different place with different expectations. My local radio station plays the anthem every day at 12:00. I don’t pull over on the side of the road to stand at attention, and no one expects me to. I do, however, stand at sports games. People expect me to. I don’t care if you stand, sit, eat, fart, or whatever during the anthem. If you care what I or anyone else does, it’s your problem. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/429 "2018-05-29T11:13:46Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > … > If police are murdering people of color, then it most assuredly NOT a time to show blind pride in the nation. > … Unless, of course if one is ok with that. Or actually supports it. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/430 "2018-05-29T12:42:35Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > No one gives a shit if you don’t like other people protesting. We all have the right to do it. Not in the workplace, you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/431 "2018-05-29T13:01:02Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Not in the workplace, you don’t. One could easily make the counterargument that by forcing standing during the anthem, the owners are forcing to players to make a political statement with which they may not agree. If the owners wanted the players to stand for the “Barack Obama Sure Is Awesome” song, would you be fine with that? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/432 "2018-05-29T13:02:40Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I say it isn’t, you say it is. We disagree, and that’s fine. But your opinion doesn’t get counted super-de-duper because you’re a veteran. That’s right. I’m a veteran and my opinion is that this whole kerfuffle over the player’s protest is just that, a kerfuffle. It’s a distraction by those who are upset the players dare to condemn a particular injustice that, frankly, doesn’t affect the majority of those who are offended. The whole idea of people saying that the players don’t respect the veterans when they protest is to make it personal, to generate personal outrage. I, as a veteran, am perfectly fine with the players protesting injustice in this manner. After all, that’s one of the freedoms I supposedly defended. > [@](#): > > I don’t care if you stand, sit, eat, fart, or whatever during the anthem. If you care what I or anyone else does, it’s your problem. Exactly right. And the Supreme Court already ruled that forced display of patriotism is treff. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Not in the workplace, you don’t. If that workplace has an event that involves a government actor, you damn sure do have the right. Out of idle curiosity, how much longer before the ridiculousness is expanded to include a mandatory chanted prayer and the pledge of allegiance? ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/433 "2018-05-29T14:35:34Z")
The fact of the matter is this new policy almost exactly mirrors the NBA’s policy and nobody cared about that. I would have preferred they kept the all players in the locker room just like they did for years, but they haven’t had a problem with the NBA’s policy and they shouldn’t have one here. I doubt any lawsuit is going to have any traction on this. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/434 "2018-05-29T15:38:30Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > They’re not breaking protocol. The players are. It’s a different situation with different people in a different place with different expectations. My local radio station plays the anthem every day at 12:00. I don’t pull over on the side of the road to stand at attention, and no one expects me to. I do, however, stand at sports games. People expect me to. You hear the National Anthem playing and you don’t stand up? Why do you hate the troops? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/435 "2018-05-29T15:40:41Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I thought the driver was supposed to stop the car and get out, stand at attention until the anthem was over, then get back into the car and continue driving, while the passengers remain seated in the car. It’s been a while since I was on a base and outside during the playing of the anthem, and that was on an Army base. Well, I’m most familiar with the AFB rules, which only required stopping and sitting quietly in your car. Getting out of the car and standing at attention wasn’t required. Not sure about Army posts. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/436 "2018-05-29T16:40:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What you are saying is that refuse to respect the tradition. And you might have a very good reason for doing so. The most common reason that I have seen people “refusing to respect the tradition” was to lessen the chance of spilling their beer. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/437 "2018-05-29T16:57:24Z")
1943 (in the middle of WWII) _West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette._ \*In a 6-to-3 decision, the Court overruled its decision in Minersville School District v. Gobitis and held that compelling public schoolchildren to salute the flag was unconstitutional. The Court found that such a salute was a form of utterance and was a means of communicating ideas. **“Compulsory unification of opinion,” the Court held, was doomed to failure and was antithetical to First Amendment values. Writing for the majority, Justice Jackson argued that "_f there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."_** ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/438 "2018-05-29T17:54:45Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > 1943 (in the middle of WWII) _West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette._ > > \*In a 6-to-3 decision, the Court overruled its decision in Minersville School District v. Gobitis and held that compelling public schoolchildren to salute the flag was unconstitutional. The Court found that such a salute was a form of utterance and was a means of communicating ideas. **“Compulsory unification of opinion,” the Court held, was doomed to failure and was antithetical to First Amendment values. Writing for the majority, Justice Jackson argued that "_f there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."_** [Trump disagrees.](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/nfl-players-stand-national-anthem-shouldnt-country-trump/story?id=55403960) > [@](#): > > “You have to stand proudly for the national anthem or you shouldn’t be playing. You shouldn’t be there. Maybe you shouldn’t be in the country. You have to stand proudly for the national anthem.” That sounds very much like an official prescribing what shall be orthodox. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/439 "2018-05-29T18:35:41Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > 1943 (in the middle of WWII) _West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette._ > > \*In a 6-to-3 decision, the Court overruled its decision in Minersville School District v. Gobitis and held that compelling public schoolchildren to salute the flag was unconstitutional. The Court found that such a salute was a form of utterance and was a means of communicating ideas. **“Compulsory unification of opinion,” the Court held, was doomed to failure and was antithetical to First Amendment values. Writing for the majority, Justice Jackson argued that "_f there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."_** I’m not sure you can apply a ruling concerning children in public school with an employment contract with adults. Maybe you can, but I’m not sure. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > [Trump disagrees.](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/nfl-players-stand-national-anthem-shouldnt-country-trump/story?id=55403960) > > That sounds very much like an official prescribing what shall be orthodox. He’s not acting as an enforcement officer in this situation. The compelling will be done, if it’s done, but the employer. And the players are offered an out (stay in the locker room) if they don’t want to participate. They might have a case, but it’s not going to be because of anything Trump has said or done. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/440 "2018-05-29T18:44:16Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > No one gives a shit if you don’t like other people protesting. We all have the right to do it. Indeed, and the people that write the checks are deciding they didn’t like them to do it on their dime. What’s the problem? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=23)