# NFL: Stand for the anthem or stay in the locker room. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701 "2018-05-23T20:38:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/461 "2018-05-30T15:05:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is refusing to be forced into patriotism a right? That is probably too broad a question to answer with a simple “yes” or “no”, but in this particular case no one is being forced into patriotism, so how is it relevant? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/462 "2018-05-30T15:07:34Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > The cops who without consequence kill black people, are they the government? Yes. They are agents of the government. > [@](#): > > The anthem sung at football games, is that the government? No, but your employer cannot force you into acts or displays of patriotism either. > [@](#): > > The flag being held on a horizontal plane above the field, is that the government? No, it is a SYMBOL of the government, as people like to keep pointing out. And it’s just a damned colored piece of cloth. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/463 "2018-05-30T15:16:45Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > No, but your employer cannot force you into acts or displays of patriotism either. I think we should be careful about absolute statements like that. Suppose you work at Ace Hardware and they are having a 4th of July Sale. Can you refuse to wear a red-white-and blue vest and greet customers with “Happy Independence Day and welcome to our Independence Day sale” if your employer expects you to? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/464 "2018-05-30T15:19:22Z")
That would be ceremonial patriotism. It’s like ceremonial deism. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/465 "2018-05-30T16:19:09Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > What I do mind is telling the NFL owners what they can and can’t do with their product. You mean like this: [Trump swayed NFL owners on anthem rules, Kaepernick case depositions reveal](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/05/30/trump-swayed-nfl-owners-on-anthem-rules-kaepernick-case-depositions-reveal.html) ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/466 "2018-05-30T16:32:48Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > The First Amendment limits the government. No matter how many times President Trump calls or tweets, the NFL is NOT the government. But publicly financed NFL stadiums can be construed to be government facilities. It’s not an open and shut case, but there’s an argument to be made that it’s unconstitutional to restrict political speech in public events held in those stadiums. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/467 "2018-05-30T17:08:05Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > But publicly financed NFL stadiums can be construed to be government facilities. It’s not an open and shut case, but there’s an argument to be made that it’s unconstitutional to restrict political speech in public events held in those stadiums. Exactly. As I posted above, the Minnesota Vikings may own a big chunk of our/their stadium, but the rest is owned by governments (state and city) and it is controlled and managed by a government appointed council. That council has every right to tell the NFL or the Vikings to fuck off with their rules. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/468 "2018-05-30T17:17:40Z")
There could well be a non-interference clause in the lease or other contracts, though. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/469 "2018-05-30T17:52:45Z")
Seems doubtful that the government would agree to take responsibility for things that may get the team sued or that the government would be prohibited from enforcing, such as requiring displays of patriotism. I do know our team lease says the stadium can be rented out on the 350 non-game days per year except: “There’ll be no events that sell guns, adults-only entertainment and periodicals, pawn-style offerings or head shop paraphernalia.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/470 "2018-05-30T18:16:38Z")
Ah, yes, “paraphernalia”! You wouldn’t believe how many people I know first learned that word by reading it on a search warrant. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/471 "2018-05-30T18:17:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Ah, yes, “paraphernalia”! You wouldn’t believe how many people I know first learned that word by reading it on a search warrant. Cops? ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/472 "2018-05-30T18:17:36Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > There could well be a non-interference clause in the lease or other contracts, though. I’d say that’s likely, even. I bet there’s also a clause that says something like, “should any part of this contract be deemed illegal or unenforceable, that part is stricken and the rest of the contract remains in force.” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/473 "2018-05-30T22:10:17Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That would be ceremonial patriotism. It’s like ceremonial deism. And there’s no such thing as either one of those. If there were, people would not be freaking out over someone’s refusal to participate in those. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/474 "2018-07-10T17:13:27Z")
[The NFLPA filed a grievance over the new anthem policy today](https://apnews.com/aa0b460b1e234a02bd23dcedd1fb6988/NFL-players-union-files-grievance-over-anthem-policy). > [@](#): > > The union says that the new policy, which the league imposed without consultation with the NFLPA, is inconsistent with the collective bargaining agreement and infringes on players’ rights. > > In May, the NFL approved its national anthem policy at its owners meetings in Atlanta. The policy allows players to protest during the national anthem by staying in the locker room, but forbids them from sitting or taking a knee if they’re on the field or the sidelines. > > Teams will be subject to fines if players don’t comply and will have the option of punishing players. > > When the league announced the policy, Commissioner Roger Goodell called it a compromise aimed at putting the focus back on football after a tumultuous year in which television ratings dipped nearly 10 percent; some blamed the protests for such a drop. The union said at that time that it would file a grievance against any change in the collective bargaining agreement. > > The union said Tuesday it has proposed having its executive committee talking to the NFL instead of proceeding with litigation. The union said the NFL has agreed to those discussions. But really, it’s not about the money; it’s about patriotism! > [@](#): > > “We want people to be respectful of the national anthem. We want people to stand,” Goodell said at the May meetings, when he dismissed concerns about the lack of union involvement by contending the league met with countless players over the past year. > > “We’ve been very sensitive on making sure that we give players choices,” the commissioner added, “but we do believe that moment is an important moment and one that we are going to focus on.” :rolleyes: In case anyone still didn’t know, the article helpfully includes this information: > [@](#): > > The NFL started requiring players to be on the field for the anthem in 2009 — the year it signed a marketing deal with the military. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/475 "2018-07-19T21:08:12Z")
[Dolphins vow to discipline protesters.](https://www.tampabay.com/apnewsbreak-miami-dolphins-to-discipline-players-who-protest-during-national-anthem-with-suspensions-fines-or-both-ap_sports073cf41f7a6f43a8839d0a828d8b0cc2) ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/476 "2018-07-20T14:20:10Z")
It seems like because of the Dolphin announcement, the league and the players’ union have “hit pause” on the new policy. [NFL, NFLPA announce ‘standstill’ on anthem rules after Dolphins report](http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24143418/nfl-nflpa-agree-freeze-national-anthem-rules) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=23)