# NFL: Stand for the anthem or stay in the locker room. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701 "2018-05-23T20:38:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/61 "2018-05-24T13:12:23Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > There are a million ways a black athlete could use his fame to promote worthy causes. Disrespecting the flag isn’t one if them, and any smart person (yes, Kaepernick is very smart) should have known that. How many different times, and in how many different ways, do you have be told that this isn’t about disrespecting the flag before you realize that this isn’t about disrespecting the flag? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/62 "2018-05-24T13:15:45Z")
I was never one who thought this form of protest was going to be particularly effective, but I’ll be damned if I want to see a bunch of billionaires get their panties all in a wad because some of the players want to perform just about the mildest form of protest you can imagine. And all this is going to do is make the whole thing even more of a controversy. Good job, guys!! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/63 "2018-05-24T13:45:45Z")
I know the OP asked for legal opinions, but I believe the matter will be settled most effectively via business channels. Who has the most to lose in this dispute? The networks! Ratings were down last year and will continue to sink if certain viewer demographics associate the NFL with unpatriotic protests that threaten to prick their America-is-Awesome bubbles. Look for the networks to broker some sort of deal between the NFLPA and the owners that keeps protests off the broadcasts and out of the news. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/64 "2018-05-24T13:50:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How many different times, and in how many different ways, do you have be told that this isn’t about disrespecting the flag before you realize that this isn’t about disrespecting the flag? Perhaps you can try miming the explanation. Or maybe a cool children’s pop-up book? ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/65 "2018-05-24T14:03:21Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > I’d like to see the players go on strike by refusing to leave the locker rooms at all until the NFL comes to their senses. You mean, even when the anthem was over? Yeah, THAT’LL go over well. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/66 "2018-05-24T14:04:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How many different times, and in how many different ways, do you have be told that this isn’t about disrespecting the flag before you realize that this isn’t about disrespecting the flag? Of course it isn’t. We do keep getting told, though, that it’s about disrespecting _veterans_. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/67 "2018-05-24T14:06:13Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I predict a lot more players staying in the locker room until the anthem is over. Which is fine. Staying in the locker room during the anthem for was protocol for all players for a long time. If there’s any blowback, it will be blowback on the players from the fans. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/68 "2018-05-24T14:06:26Z")
> [@DLuxN8R-13](#): > > Holy shit. Professional football is starting to mirror a lot of what I despise the most about USAian culture generally - woman beaters, serial animal killers and abusers, and fools who shoot themselves in the ass with their own illegal concealed weapons are not only permitted to play, but get cut fat-ass paychecks and honored for their contributions to the game, while other men are severely sanctioned by the same organization for exercising their\* right\* to express their opinions and voice their dissent, or use a botanically derived substance that’s legal in my home state. USA all the way - adulation of violence, brutal competition, conformity and authoritarianism, while simple innocent pleasures are looked down on with a weight of righteousness. No wonder I’ve always had a gut-deep distaste for the game and everything connected with it. Well said, except you left out the bit about jingoistic soldier worship by an organization composed almost exclusively of people who want nothing to do with pointing a gun at an armed person. Also, that bit about hating the game–I don’t even know what that means. NFL players can be a clever bunch. It won’t take long for them to all agree to just stay in the locker room during the anthem. No fines for that, and their conspicuous and unified absence will be a glaringly visible protest boot to the nuts of the owners. And really, the protest would be ballooning from just BLM to ALL forms of oppression, like employer overreach, which affects a lot more people. > [@Ashtura](#): > > If there’s any blowback, it will be blowback on the players from the fans. And who will that actually affect? The players’ salaries are in contract. If the fans don’t wanna buy the merch that hurts management, no? Which is the perfect target in all this. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/69 "2018-05-24T14:07:18Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Perhaps you can try miming the explanation. Or maybe a cool children’s pop-up book? Interpretive dance is the only way. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/70 "2018-05-24T14:08:27Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Interpretive dance is the only way. I think so too, but I think I used that one before. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/71 "2018-05-24T14:11:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How many different times, and in how many different ways, do you have be told that this isn’t about disrespecting the flag before you realize that this isn’t about disrespecting the flag? Of COURSE it’s disrespectful, and you telling me a million times it isn’t doesn’t change a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/72 "2018-05-24T14:14:11Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Of COURSE it’s disrespectful, and you telling me a million times it isn’t doesn’t change a thing. …how exactly is it disrespectful? Who made that decision, and am I obliged to agree with it? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/73 "2018-05-24T14:15:00Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Of COURSE it’s disrespectful Kneeling is the way athletes show respect and concern for another player, of either team, who is injured on the field and needs care. How do you dismiss the idea that it could also be how they might show respect and concern for an injured country? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/74 "2018-05-24T14:17:42Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Of COURSE it’s disrespectful, and you telling me a million times it isn’t doesn’t change a thing. Can I go with you one Sunday this fall around to different bars and watch you tell everyone who is sitting down during the Anthem there that they are being disrespectful? ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/75 "2018-05-24T14:19:14Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > NFL players can be a clever bunch. It won’t take long for them to all agree to just stay in the locker room during the anthem. No fines for that, and their conspicuous and unified absence will be a glaringly visible protest boot to the nuts of the owners. No, it won’t. Players staying in the locker room was status quo for a long time and nobody cared. > [@](#): > > And really, the protest would be ballooning from just BLM to ALL forms of oppression, like employer overreach, which affects a lot more people.And who will that actually affect? The players’ salaries are in contract. If the fans don’t wanna buy the merch that hurts management, no? Which is the perfect target in all this. It’s not going to hurt merch any more than the status quo. At least the management can say “well, we did something - it’s on the players now”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/76 "2018-05-24T14:36:54Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Of COURSE it’s disrespectful, and you telling me a million times it isn’t doesn’t change a thing. 1. Tell me exactly why it is disrespectful _to the flag_(your claim). 2. Tell me why you disbelieve all those that explain why they do it. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/77 "2018-05-24T14:39:19Z")
COlin Kaepernick went out of his way to wear socks showing the police as pigs. DUMB! He wears Castro T-shirts. DUMB! I repeat, there are a million ways prominent African Americans can make their opinions known AND can educate white people who don’t understand the issues at stake. Just to give a personal example (one NOT involving an athlete): I teach at an affluent, predominantly white high school. Our principal, my boss, is an African American male. If you met him, I think you’d describe him as “preppy.” The kids and faculty mostly love him. During last year’s Government class, when we were discussing Constitutional protections against illegal searches and/or police abuse, many of my students couldn’t grasp why such things were necessary. After all, to us middle-class white folks, the police are the GOOD guys, right? Well, when I had the principal address the class on the many times he’s been pulled over by police for “driving while black,” that was a chilling but highly enlightening moment for my class. The principal of the school has gotten pulled over and asked for ID multiple times within a few blocks of this school- and there is NO way a cop could reasonably contend that he looks like a thug; As I said,he’s a thoroughly preppy, yuppie looking guy. I’m ALL FOR athletes using their “bully pulpits” to educate the fans about realities they don’t know about. I encourage DeShaun Watson to tell reporters about times police harassed him or his family for no reason. I think it would be great if Donovan McNabb shared stories of GMs or coaches who told him black men weren’t smart enough to play quarterback. It would be awesome if Jerry Rice told people of a relative sent to prison for a crime he never committed. Star athletes have a platform, they have access to the media, and they can get their message out. But refusing to stand for the national anthem doesn’t get ANY message out. If Colin Kaepernick thought that would get America’s attention so he could tell them about the issues he cares about, he FAILED. Completely. He accomplished NOTHING beyond ticking people off. If you disrespect the flag, you don’t make people listen, you make them ANGRY! Kaepernick had a chance to educate people, but he chose to piss them off instead. That was a wasted opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/78 "2018-05-24T14:42:51Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > COlin Kaepernick went out of his way to wear socks showing the police as pigs. > > DUMB! > > He wears Castro T-shirts. > > DUMB! > > I repeat, there are a million ways prominent African Americans can make their opinions known AND can educate white people who don’t understand the issues at stake. > > Just to give a personal example (one NOT involving an athlete): I teach at an affluent, predominantly white high school. Our principal, my boss, is an African American male. If you met him, I think you’d describe him as “preppy.” The kids and faculty mostly love him. > > During last year’s Government class, when we were discussing Constitutional protections against illegal searches and/or police abuse, many of my students couldn’t grasp why such things were necessary. After all, to us middle-class white folks, the police are the GOOD guys, right? Well, when I had the principal address the class on the many times he’s been pulled over by police for “driving while black,” that was a chilling but highly enlightening moment for my class. The principal of the school has gotten pulled over and asked for ID multiple times within a few blocks of this school- and there is NO way a cop could reasonably contend that he looks like a thug; As I said,he’s a thoroughly preppy, yuppie looking guy. > > I’m ALL FOR athletes using their “bully pulpits” to educate the fans about realities they don’t know about. I encourage DeShaun Watson to tell reporters about times police harassed him or his family for no reason. I think it would be great if Donovan McNabb shared stories of GMs or coaches who told him black men weren’t smart enough to play quarterback. It would be awesome if Jerry Rice told people of a relative sent to prison for a crime he never committed. Star athletes have a platform, they have access to the media, and they can get their message out. > > But refusing to stand for the national anthem doesn’t get ANY message out. If Colin Kaepernick thought that would get America’s attention so he could tell them about the issues he cares about, he FAILED. Completely. He accomplished NOTHING beyond ticking people off. If you disrespect the flag, you don’t make people listen, you make them ANGRY! > > Kaepernick had a chance to educate people, but he chose to piss them off instead. That was a wasted opportunity. In what way is kneeling disrespectful to the flag, especially if you say it has nothing to do with disrespect and/or the flag? ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/79 "2018-05-24T14:53:10Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > The fact that some players are forced into something they oppose means those players are going to come up with a response. These guys have trained endlessly to be tough and to never back down - it’s how they got where they are. The owners (and whoever is pressuring the owners) are going to end up looking like fools. (Which unfortunately appears to be accurate.) > > Perhaps worse is the way in which forced compliance with patriotism makes all American patriots look weak and insecure. Needing to force compliance is an obvious sign of desperation. The NFL is a business, that generates money from its customers, from which it pays its employees. It generally behooves the employees to support the employer in this endeavor. I know they (we?) believe that this cash cow called the NFL will continue to grow, but it may not be the case. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/80 "2018-05-24T14:55:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In what way is kneeling disrespectful to the flag, especially if you say it has nothing to do with disrespect and/or the flag? Not sure if nitpicking, but yes, technically it’s the anthem, not the flag, being disrespected here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=5)