# NFL: Stand for the anthem or stay in the locker room. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701 "2018-05-23T20:38:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/81 "2018-05-24T14:56:41Z")
The anthem is about the flag, which is faced during its performance, so that’s a mighty small nit. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/82 "2018-05-24T14:59:24Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > COlin Kaepernick went out of his way to wear socks showing the police as pigs. > > DUMB! > > He wears Castro T-shirts. > > DUMB! > > I repeat, there are a million ways prominent African Americans can make their opinions known AND can educate white people who don’t understand the issues at stake. > > Just to give a personal example (one NOT involving an athlete): I teach at an affluent, predominantly white high school. Our principal, my boss, is an African American male. If you met him, I think you’d describe him as “preppy.” The kids and faculty mostly love him. > > During last year’s Government class, when we were discussing Constitutional protections against illegal searches and/or police abuse, many of my students couldn’t grasp why such things were necessary. After all, to us middle-class white folks, the police are the GOOD guys, right? Well, when I had the principal address the class on the many times he’s been pulled over by police for “driving while black,” that was a chilling but highly enlightening moment for my class. The principal of the school has gotten pulled over and asked for ID multiple times within a few blocks of this school- and there is NO way a cop could reasonably contend that he looks like a thug; As I said,he’s a thoroughly preppy, yuppie looking guy. > > I’m ALL FOR athletes using their “bully pulpits” to educate the fans about realities they don’t know about. I encourage DeShaun Watson to tell reporters about times police harassed him or his family for no reason. I think it would be great if Donovan McNabb shared stories of GMs or coaches who told him black men weren’t smart enough to play quarterback. It would be awesome if Jerry Rice told people of a relative sent to prison for a crime he never committed. Star athletes have a platform, they have access to the media, and they can get their message out. > > But refusing to stand for the national anthem doesn’t get ANY message out. If Colin Kaepernick thought that would get America’s attention so he could tell them about the issues he cares about, he FAILED. Completely. He accomplished NOTHING beyond ticking people off. If you disrespect the flag, you don’t make people listen, you make them ANGRY! > > Kaepernick had a chance to educate people, but he chose to piss them off instead. That was a wasted opportunity. Alternately, Kap’s protests (along with those from many other players) made this issue much, much more visible to many more Americans, resulting in loss of positive dialogue and contributing to positive action on many issues like body cameras. Which is how I see it. Kap definitely helped, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/83 "2018-05-24T14:59:32Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Not sure if nitpicking, but yes, technically it’s the anthem, not the flag, being disrespected here. Tell **astorian** , not me. > [@astorian](#): > > There are a million ways a black athlete could use his fame to promote worthy causes. Disrespecting the flag isn’t one if them, and any smart person (yes, Kaepernick is very smart) should have known that. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/84 "2018-05-24T15:10:47Z")
It really doesn’t matter if there is intent to disrespect the flag. Perception is everything. It’s the only thing that matters. And many, many people perceived it as disrespect. It’s easy to misconstrue intentions, and bad optics. That’s counterproductive to your cause. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/85 "2018-05-24T15:12:51Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …how exactly is it disrespectful? Who made that decision, and am I obliged to agree with it? Standing is a ceremonial way to show respect. That is why people stand when a judge enters a courtroom or a bride enters the church. It used to be that students stood when a teacher entered the classroom and gentlemen stood when a lady enters the room. It is customary now to show respect to the country by standing and taking your hat off when then the national anthem is played. Likewise not standing during a time where everyone else is standing to show respect is a calculated move to show disrespect. Pretending otherwise is like saying giving someone the middle finger is meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/86 "2018-05-24T15:15:03Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > It really doesn’t matter if there is intent to disrespect the flag. > > Perception is everything. It’s the only thing that matters. > > And many, many people perceived it as disrespect. That’s counterproductive to your cause. It’s more a case of a dishonest perception that is being pushed by right-wing ideologues. “Many, many” people didn’t view it as disrespect until they were _told_ it was disrespectful, an agenda still being promoted in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Doubticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@Doubticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubticus)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/87 "2018-05-24T15:16:36Z")
Honestly, I’m of two minds on this issue. One on hand I support the cause of the players who are protesting. On the other, I don’t feel the NFL is obligated to give their players a forum for their protests. The net result of all of this I feel will simply be the removal of the anthem from professional sports. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/88 "2018-05-24T15:20:48Z")
> [@Doubticus](#): > > Honestly, I’m of two minds on this issue. One on hand I support the cause of the players who are protesting. On the other, I don’t feel the NFL is obligated to give their players a forum for their protests. The net result of all of this I feel will simply be **the removal of the anthem from professional sports**. Which will be a win for everybody except the hyper-“patriots.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/89 "2018-05-24T15:21:50Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Of COURSE it’s disrespectful, and you telling me a million times it isn’t doesn’t change a thing. Imagine I think you’re incorrect. It shouldn’t be difficult; I _do_ think that. As a result of what I just said, possibly you wish to show disrespect for me. But it’s also possible that you have nothing but respect for me. May I make a small request? I’d very much like for you to show your true feelings by kneeling before me — and, just to make everything clear, I’d like for you to repeatedly explain that you of course don’t intend any disrespect by kneeling before me. I mean, that’s not really how kneeling before me works; but I’d sure like for you to spell that out _anyway_. I’d like you to so kneel before me every week. Is that cool? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/90 "2018-05-24T15:24:23Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Well said, except you left out the bit about jingoistic soldier worship by an organization composed almost exclusively of people who want nothing to do with pointing a gun at an armed person. Also, that bit about hating the game–I don’t even know what that means. > > NFL players can be a clever bunch. It won’t take long for them to all agree to just stay in the locker room during the anthem. No fines for that, and their conspicuous and unified absence will be a glaringly visible protest boot to the nuts of the owners. > > And really, the protest would be ballooning from just BLM to ALL forms of oppression, like employer overreach, which affects a lot more people.And who will that actually affect? The players’ salaries are in contract. If the fans don’t wanna buy the merch that hurts management, no? Which is the perfect target in all this. Total player salaries are determined by the salary cap which is determined by a certain percentage of total league revenues. Any changes to merchandise revenue will be reflected in the next years salary cap and will result in player’s receiving less money for their next contract. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/91 "2018-05-24T15:28:47Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I repeat, there are a million ways prominent African Americans can make their opinions known AND can educate white people who don’t understand the issues at stake. > > Just to give a personal example (one NOT involving an athlete): I teach at an affluent, predominantly white high school. Our principal, my boss, is an African American male… > > {shaggy dog story deleted} > > …But refusing to stand for the national anthem doesn’t get ANY message out. If Colin Kaepernick thought that would get America’s attention so he could tell them about the issues he cares about, he FAILED. Completely. He accomplished NOTHING beyond ticking people off. If you disrespect the flag, you don’t make people listen, you make them ANGRY! > > Kaepernick had a chance to educate people, but he chose to piss them off instead. That was a wasted opportunity. Cool story, brah. Now, are you going to actually explain how ‘taking the knee’ is disrespecting the nation, the flag, or military veterans in any way shape or form, or are you going to continue to dissemble with pointless anecdotes? > [@Musicat](#): > > Is anyone reminded of the “super-patriotic” scenes in _Catch-22_? When the generals competed for who would be the most patriotic? Sign this loyalty oath to get your breakfast! Salute the flag for your lunch! Sign, salute and pledge allegiance for dinner or you’ll starve!! That is about the least disturbing reference to _Catch-22_. I’m just waiting for Trump to start tweeting, “What’s good for the Trump Organization is good for America,” and for him to accept contracts with Iran or Syria to start commanding American drones to preemptively attack American ships and airfields. I think Yossarian had it correct: “The enemy is anybody who’s going to get you killed, no matter which side he’s on, and that includes Colonel Cathcart. And don’t you forget that, because the longer you remember it, the longer you might live.” > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I was never one who thought this form of protest was going to be particularly effective, but I’ll be damned if I want to see a bunch of billionaires get their panties all in a wad because some of the players want to perform just about the mildest form of protest you can imagine. And all this is going to do is make the whole thing even more of a controversy. Good job, guys!! :rolleyes: It is amusing how a literally silent protest has evoked such a public vocal response that is way out of proportion with any real or imagined offense, and then lengths to which political figures have sought to propagandize it. You could not deliberately conceive of a better viral marketing campaign if you tried. The only mistake Kaepernick made was not securing some kind of licensing rights at the outset. But frankly, the NFL has about another ten years of life left in it before the over-growing promotional costs and liability over CTE injuries makes it fiscally unviable, and assheaded behavior on the part of owners like this isn’t winning them any more credibility as being concerned about their players. The people manufacturing outrage over this are using the NFL as a proxy for patriotism and kneeling as some kind of loyalty challenge, and that is only going to hold up for as long as the NFL contineues to matter. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/92 "2018-05-24T15:45:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “Many, many” people didn’t view it as disrespect until they were _told_ it was disrespectful. I’m gonna need a cite on that one. Fans booed _the very first time_ he kneeled, september 1st, 2017. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/6u5fvfbyoS4/maxresdefault.jpg "Kaepernick getting booed by Chargers fans (Wait until the 14 second mark)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u5fvfbyoS4) ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/93 "2018-05-24T15:46:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Alternately, Kap’s protests (along with those from many other players) made this issue much, much more visible to many more Americans, resulting in loss of positive dialogue and contributing to positive action on many issues like body cameras. Which is how I see it. Kap definitely helped, IMO. Exactly. African-American athletes have talked about how they’ve been targeted by the police for their skin color for years. Kap and the other kneelers have made that conversation more apparent than it was before. Also, a Christian, I get amused by the notion that kneeling is disrespectful. Usually in churches with kneelers when there is an option to either “stand or kneel” (for prayers such), most decide to kneel because it is feels more respectful. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/94 "2018-05-24T15:52:22Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > During last year’s Government class, when we were discussing Constitutional protections against illegal searches and/or police abuse, many of my students couldn’t grasp why such things were necessary. Students being taught by someone who regards protest as “disrespectful” to America are confused about the fundamentals of the American system? Gee, I wonder why… ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/95 "2018-05-24T15:54:10Z")
Just stop playing the anthem at every pro game, problem solved. We could turn communist overnight, but that’s a risk I’m willing to take. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/96 "2018-05-24T15:55:18Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Also, a Christian, I get amused by the notion that kneeling is disrespectful. Usually in churches with kneelers when there is an option to either “stand or kneel” (for prayers such), most decide to kneel because it is feels more respectful. A stadium is not church. The protocol for the national anthem is well established and known, and is said on a loudspeaker at every game. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/97 "2018-05-24T15:58:56Z")
[quote=“Ashtura, post:92, topic:814701”] I’m gonna need a cite on that one. Fans booed _the very first time_ he kneeled, september 1st, 2017. [/QUOTE] That wasn’t the first time. He sat the week before and there were plenty of articles about it. We’re people booing then? Also, is booing during the National Anthem not disrespectful? What about [going to get a beer?](https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/05/23/49ers-owner-jed-york-concessions-national-anthem-debate) ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/98 "2018-05-24T16:02:33Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > A stadium is not church. The protocol for the national anthem is well established and known, and is said on a loudspeaker at every game. What about kneeling before Zod? Is that disrespectful? Come on - “Said on a loudspeaker”? YGTBKM ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/99 "2018-05-24T16:03:20Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Also, is booing during the National Anthem not disrespectful? What about [going to get a beer?](https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/05/23/49ers-owner-jed-york-concessions-national-anthem-debate) Still better than taking a whiz. ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/100 "2018-05-24T16:10:42Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > There are a million ways a black athlete could use his fame to promote worthy causes. Disrespecting the flag isn’t one if them, and any smart person (yes, Kaepernick is very smart) should have known that. Kaepernick did this. He put his money where his mouth is and donated to charities with his salary. He wasn’t just being a smart mouth stirring up trouble - he was looking to start conversations and start change: > **[A look at where Colin Kaepernick donates his money](https://www.si.com/sportsperson/2017/12/06/colin-kaepernick-charity-giving-donations)** > > Colin Kaepernick took a stand by kneeling, but he speaks through the money he donates to various charities.  > **[Here are the final 10 organizations Colin Kaepernick donated to for his $1...](https://www.sbnation.com/2018/1/31/16935356/colin-kaepernick-donate-organizations-million-dollar-pledge-10-for-10)** > > Kaepernick has continued his activism, despite not playing during the 2017 NFL season. Kaepernick had a conversation with Nate Boyer about this. Boyer is a veteran who was deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan as a Green Beret and played for the Seahawks in 2015. Interestingly, they had their differences but ultimately compromised with the kneeling: > **[Ex-Green Beret Nate Boyer pens open letter to Trump, Kaepernick, NFL and America](https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21003968/nfl-2017-ex-green-beret-nate-boyer-writes-open-letter-president-donald-trump-colin-kaepernick-nfl-united-states-America)** > > Boyer, a former NFL player who spoke with Colin Kaepernick about kneeling before the national anthem in 2016, calls for unity and a meeting on behalf of America. How can kneeling be disrespectful? It’s respectful to kneel in church, players kneel when another player is hurt to show respect, and most notably, at a military funeral the Honor Guard presenting the folded flag to the next of kin KNEELS when handing it over: > **[Army, Navy, Military, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard](https://www.military1.com/military-history/article/1782752014-6-military-funeral-traditions-and-their-meaning/)** > > Find the latest military news, military jobs, veteran jobs, service benefits and military products on Military1. I am a veteran and I totally, wholly, fully support players who want to kneel. When they kneel, they are saying “I love my country but there are some problems that we need to address.” That’s patriotism. Additionally, I am also cool with Army veteran and Steeler Alejandro Villanueva standing during the national anthem last year: [http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/news/local/military/article175300571.html](http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/news/local/military/article175300571.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=6)