# NFL: Stand for the anthem or stay in the locker room. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701 "2018-05-23T20:38:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/101 "2018-05-24T16:14:21Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Also, a Christian, I get amused by the notion that kneeling is disrespectful. Usually in churches with kneelers when there is an option to either “stand or kneel” (for prayers such), most decide to kneel because it is feels more respectful. Context and intention. In a stadium where everyone is standing and everyone else on the sideline is standing, and it is generally accepted that one stands for the flag during the anthem, kneeling is deliberately intended to have a contrary intent. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/102 "2018-05-24T16:21:12Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Context and intention. That can’t be it, because those who are pushing that this is unpatriotic aren’t using either context or intention. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/103 "2018-05-24T16:24:34Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The policy subjects teams to a fine if a player or any other team personnel do not show respect for the anthem.\* IMHO making a political protest without worrying that the government is going to kidnap you and beat you to death in a backroom IS respecting the US national anthem. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/104 "2018-05-24T16:25:43Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Context and intention. In a stadium where everyone is standing and everyone else on the sideline is standing, and it is generally accepted that one stands for the flag during the anthem, kneeling is deliberately intended to have a contrary intent. And what did he say his intention was? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/105 "2018-05-24T16:28:31Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Now, are you going to actually explain how ‘taking the knee’ is disrespecting the nation, the flag, or military veterans in any way shape or form, or are you going to continue to dissemble with pointless anecdotes? > > That is about the least disturbing reference to _Catch-22_. I’m just waiting for Trump to start tweeting, “What’s good for the Trump Organization is good for America,” and for him to accept contracts with Iran or Syria to start commanding American drones to preemptively attack American ships and airfields. (post shortened, underline added) Did you provide your own seemingly pointless anecdote for demonstration purposes, or are you simply starting a new Pelosi-ism to attack Trump with? p.s. Captain Yossarian never existed. It was Joseph Heller who actually wrote the words attributed to Yossarian. Credit where credit is due and all that. p.p.s. The asshole Kaepernick’s NFL career is over. He is now free to kneel anywhere he wishes, and at any time he wishes. Buh-bye Kaepernick. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/106 "2018-05-24T16:40:45Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Originally Posted by **doorhinge** - The policy subjects teams to a fine if a player or any other team personnel do not show respect for the anthem.\* > > IMHO making a political protest without worrying that the government is going to kidnap you and beat you to death in a backroom IS respecting the US national anthem. Ahem, the NFL owners have agreed to fine their own TEAMS if players or personnel do not show respect for the anthem. The kidnapping of someone, or beating someone to death, seems to be your personal fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/107 "2018-05-24T16:41:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Still, it’s a crazy ritual-- it’s a football game, not a patriots’ rally. I’m not sure of that. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Of this I am absolutely certain. Employers cannot, for example, compel employees to call all black people “niggers”, or to chant “Jews will not replace us” on Yom Kippur (or any other time), or to salute each other with “Heil Hitler!”. No, but I can compel an employee to serve a customer wearing a MAGA hat. > [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Perhaps worse is the way in which forced compliance with patriotism makes all American patriots look weak and insecure. Needing to force compliance is an obvious sign of desperation. Threatening people to be patriotic “or else” is a poor selling point for patriotism. > [@Leaper](#): > > Someone on Reddit pointed out that if this policy was to make the controversy go away, it has a lot of potential to do the exact opposite, by highlighting those who decide to defy it. > > I look forward to groups demanding more out of the NFL after that, like a public statement of support for the armed forces and the president. I get giddy thinking of the dilemma. 🙂 "Please (and by please, I mean under penalty of law) stand for your 15 minutes of admiration of Supreme (taco) president trump! > [@Grrr](#): > > I remember reading a story about a dude that worked for some big box store. All of the employees had to wear badges that stated: “X” days with out a safety incident. When the number got to 666, one of the employees made a stink about it and refused to wear the badge. > > He was fired. And lost his civil case against them in court. Maybe he should have caused an accident on day 665? Just sayin… > [@Slash1972](#): > > I think so too, but I think I used that one before. Maybe Haiku? it is not respect to stand before an idol protest is respect ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/108 "2018-05-24T16:42:41Z")
Beginning in 2009 players were required to come out of the locker room for the anthem. If not for this sort of attempt at maximizing the marketing of feel good patriotism, would this have ever been a huge issue? I see the changes now as a grudging reversion to a more sane era. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/109 "2018-05-24T16:49:28Z")
I would like to point out that having players stand for the anthem originally started so the owners could get advertising dollars from the Armed Services then were shamed into not accepting the money. It was about $$$ and not patriotism. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/110 "2018-05-24T17:07:17Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > if > players or personnel > do > not > **show > respect > for** > the > anthem. > > The kidnapping of someone, or beating someone to death, seems to be your personal fantasy. bolding mine. Since you typed that instead of: stand up during you’re not in a good position to be criticizing anybody for having personal fantasies. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/111 "2018-05-24T17:14:14Z")
Alternately we could crack down on corrupt police departments … ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/112 "2018-05-24T17:27:26Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Ahem, > the > NFL > owners > have > agreed > to > fine > their > own > TEAMS > if > players or personnel > do > not > show > respect > for > the > anthem. > > The kidnapping of someone, or beating someone to death, seems to be your personal fantasy. Something got fouled up with your formatting, you might want to ask a mod to fix that for ya. In any case, if you note the post you were replying to, he did not say that he was expecting someone to be kidnapped or beaten to death. He does not expect that because we live in a country that has the first amendment and a healthy respect for allowing people to speak out against the govt. There are other places and times when speaking out against the government resulting in sanction from the govt, up to and including being tortured to death was and is very much a reality, not a fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/113 "2018-05-24T17:28:56Z")
Seems like someone ought to send a copy of Justice Robert Jackson’s opinion from _West Virginia Board of Education v Barnette_: ``` *The case is made difficult not because the principles of its decision are obscure but because the flag involved is our own. Nevertheless, we apply the limitations of the Constitution with no fear that freedom to be intellectually and spiritually diverse or even contrary will disintegrate the social organization. To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous instead of a compulsory routine is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds. We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes. When they are so harmless to others or to the State as those we deal with here, the price is not too great. But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order. If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us.* ``` ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/114 "2018-05-24T17:51:51Z")
I repeat, IT DOES NOT MATTER IF IT IS DISRESPECTFUL OR NOT. It doesn’t matter what the hell you do in church, or at funerals, or whatever other stupid example you give. The protocol, and this is said at every damn game, even a child knows it, is to stand during the national anthem. Not kneel. Not kneel or stand. Stand. You pointedly don’t do that, it’s going to give bad optics and be subject to misinterpretation. There is more ambiguity in remaining seated. Maybe you’re back hurts. Maybe you’re just lazy. Who knows. Being lazy often goes unnoticed. When you kneel, that’s making a deliberate statement. I’m not doing the protocol. On purpose. ALL that matters is perception. All that other stuff Kap did? Great, good for him. You aren’t going to get misinterpreted by giving to a charity, or talking to the press, or whatever. This just plain had bad optics, it’s plainly obvious. Sure, it got people talking. Are black people better off because of it? I seriously doubt it. I sure know Kap isn’t better off. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/115 "2018-05-24T17:57:58Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > ALL that matters is perception. Perceptions will never change if you don’t challenge them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/116 "2018-05-24T18:03:10Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > I repeat, IT DOES NOT MATTER IF IT IS DISRESPECTFUL OR NOT. It doesn’t matter what the hell you do in church, or at funerals, or whatever other stupid example you give. The protocol, and this is said at every damn game, even a child knows it, is to stand during the national anthem. Not kneel. Not kneel or stand. Stand. You pointedly don’t do that, it’s going to give bad optics and be subject to misinterpretation. > > There is more ambiguity in remaining seated. Maybe you’re back hurts. Maybe you’re just lazy. Who knows. Being lazy often goes unnoticed. When you kneel, that’s making a deliberate statement. I’m not doing the protocol. On purpose. > > ALL that matters is perception. > > All that other stuff Kap did? Great, good for him. You aren’t going to get misinterpreted by giving to a charity, or talking to the press, or whatever. This just plain had bad optics, it’s plainly obvious. Sure, it got people talking. Are black people better off because of it? I seriously doubt it. I sure know Kap isn’t better off. 1. I don’t think he did it to benefit himself. 2. Congrats for pointing out that adverse advertising works. The “perception” you keep pointing out was nothing more than a campaign to misdirect people from the issue he was trying to talk about. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/117 "2018-05-24T18:06:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I don’t think he did it to benefit himself. Yeah, he’d have to be an idiot. And he is. And given that he’s stated he’d stand if he were given a contract today, I’m pretty sure he doesn’t think it was worth it. > [@](#): > > Congrats for pointing out that adverse advertising works. The “perception” you keep pointing out was nothing more than a campaign to misdirect people from the issue he was trying to talk about. So, you’re saying that, on September 1st, _everyone_ booing was already brainwashed by whatever conspiracy campaign you’re talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/118 "2018-05-24T18:10:05Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The kidnapping of someone, or beating someone to death, seems to be your personal fantasy. This’ll get you a warning, doorhinge. It’s expressly against the rules to say that another poster is deriving some sort of gratification from their posts or positions. Ick. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/119 "2018-05-24T18:14:45Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Yeah, he’d have to be an idiot. And he is. And given that he’s stated he’d stand if he were given a contract today, I’m pretty sure he doesn’t think it was worth it. > So, you’re saying that, on September 1st, _everyone_ booing was already brainwashed by whatever conspiracy campaign you’re talking about? I’m sorry-did you miss post #97? ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/120 "2018-05-24T18:30:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m sorry-did you miss post #97? Okay, so you’re saying every single person booing on Sept 1 read a hit piece on Colin Kaepernick? Well, that’s a nice theory. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=7)