# NFL: Stand for the anthem or stay in the locker room. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701 "2018-05-23T20:38:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/121 "2018-05-24T18:34:47Z")
Its a Goddamn football game! It has all the patriotic gravity of a middle school pep rally! If the national anthem is to embody patriotic devotion, to be a ritual of worship, it should not be cheapened and degraded. For sports? If NFL players were shredding each other’s brains for their country, that might be one thing. But for Doritos? Oh, _hell_, no! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/122 "2018-05-24T18:37:50Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Okay, so you’re saying every single person booing on Sept 1 read a hit piece on Colin Kaepernick? Well, that’s a nice theory. Okay, so you are reading responses from some other thread and attributing them to me? I really don’t think I am obligated to respond to extreme re-interpretations of what I actually post, so when you decide to dispute what I actually post, let me know. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/123 "2018-05-24T18:41:58Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Exactly. African-American athletes have talked about how they’ve been targeted by the police for their skin color for years. Kap and the other kneelers have made that conversation more apparent than it was before. > > Also, a Christian, I get amused by the notion that kneeling is disrespectful. Usually in churches with kneelers when there is an option to either “stand or kneel” (for prayers such), most decide to kneel because it is feels more respectful. This is a ridiculous argument. Kneeling in church is totally different, in terms of context and meaning. This makes as much sense as saying “dropping trou in a bathroom is fine so why can’t I do it in a court of law?” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/124 "2018-05-24T18:48:14Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is a ridiculous argument. > Kneeling in church is totally different, in terms of context and meaning. This makes as much sense as saying “dropping trou in a bathroom is fine so why can’t I do it in a court of law?” Since this is a new thing, where did you get the idea that he was doing it to disrespect _anything_, up to and including the national anthem and the flag? He _said_ why he was doing it-do you believe he was lying about his intentions? ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/125 "2018-05-24T18:50:22Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is a ridiculous argument. > Kneeling in church is totally different, in terms of context and meaning. This makes as much sense as saying “dropping trou in a bathroom is fine so why can’t I do it in a court of law?” So is flipping off the flag the flag and kneeling before the flag completely the same thing to you? Seriously, this whole “Black people aren’t protesting right” thing is getting a little old. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/126 "2018-05-24T18:51:32Z")
I have never seen anyone kneel like that to disrespect some ideal, but I have seen it done _many_ times as a sign of someone praying…so what and/or who put the idea in your head that this was some new way to disrespect something? [Images of players _praying_ during sporting events.](http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=praying+duringsports+events&FORM=HDRSC2) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/127 "2018-05-24T18:54:43Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Context and intention. In a stadium where everyone is standing and everyone else on the sideline is standing, and it is generally accepted that one stands for the flag during the anthem, kneeling is deliberately intended to have a contrary intent. Yesterday (literally), I was in a classroom where the Pledge of Allegiance was being recited. I stood respectfully, but despite being a U.S. citizen, I neither recited the words, nor placed my hand over my heart. Given the context, what do my actions reveal about my intention? ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/128 "2018-05-24T19:04:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Okay, so you are reading responses from some other thread and attributing them to me? I really don’t think I am obligated to respond to extreme re-interpretations of what I actually post, so when you decide to dispute what I actually post, let me know. And what point are you making? Post 97# > [@](#): > > That wasn’t the first time. He sat the week before and there were plenty of articles about it. We’re people booing then? That’s what I’m responding to. People did not boo (to my knowledge), when he remained seated, out of uniform, twice (aug 14th, 20th), and once when he was in uniform on the 26th. He did not take a knee until September 1st. That’s the first recorded booing I have. So, my assumption of your line of thinking, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that everybody booed because they read a hit piece on him, that contradicted his own words? That’s a nice theory, but it also happens to coincide with the first time he kneeled, in uniform, so there’s multiple explanations that don’t require that theory. The fans did not preemptively boo Kaepernick, it happened a few seconds after he and Reid took a knee (and two players is more conspicuous than 1, that’s the first time that happened too). ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/129 "2018-05-24T19:05:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Since this is a new thing, where did you get the idea that he was doing it to disrespect _anything_, up to and including the national anthem and the flag? He _said_ why he was doing it-do you believe he was lying about his intentions? Here is [an explicit statement by Eric Reid regarding the intention of Kaepernick and himself in kneeling](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opinion/colin-kaepernick-football-protests.html). Anyone making the argument that this was a gesture intended as a show of disrespect directed at anything except those who would claim that there is no inequality in how black people are treated is being disingeneous to the extreme. It’s purely manufactured outrage over a non-existent slight by the most thin-skinned denialists and flag-draping ‘patriots’ who fear that even the mildest criticism of of any aspect of traditional American society will cause it to collapse into a hot mess of multiculturalism or…something. The upset is so wholly artificial it’s actually difficult to tell what they’re actually upset over except for losing an exclusive status. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/130 "2018-05-24T19:08:45Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > The upset is so wholly artificial it’s actually difficult to tell what they’re actually upset over except for losing an exclusive status. Or maybe they’re just looking for any excuse to be pissed off at those uppity, ungrateful n\*\*\*\*rs, and this will do as well as anything. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/131 "2018-05-24T19:09:18Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Yesterday (literally), I was in a classroom where the Pledge of Allegiance was being recited. I stood respectfully, but despite being a U.S. citizen, I neither recited the words, nor placed my hand over my heart. > > Given the context, what do my actions reveal about my intention? You guys keep coming up with non-sequiturs? Any more? That’s the pledge of allegiance, not the national anthem. And it was in a school. Which has established case law behind it since 1943. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/132 "2018-05-24T19:10:46Z")
[Just look at all this disrespect going on!](http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/8/3e/83e5651e-df4e-5798-8e8e-671cb91238a1/557896175df40.image.jpg?resize=760%2C484) ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/133 "2018-05-24T19:10:47Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > You guys keep coming up with non-sequiturs? Any more? That’s the pledge of allegiance, not the national anthem. And it was in a school. Which has established case law behind it since 1943. And there is dick-all case law against kneeling for the national anthem, and yet you announce that people have to stand as though that’s carved in stone. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/134 "2018-05-24T19:12:36Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > You guys keep coming up with non-sequiturs? Any more? That’s the pledge of allegiance, not the national anthem. And it was in a school. Which has established case law behind it since 1943. And the player in question has stated directly what his intention was. Is that also a non-sequitur…or are you saying he was lying? ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/135 "2018-05-24T19:15:10Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Here is [an explicit statement by Eric Reid regarding the intention of Kaepernick and himself in kneeling](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opinion/colin-kaepernick-football-protests.html). Anyone making the argument that this was a gesture intended as a show of disrespect directed at anything except those who would claim that there is no inequality in how black people are treated is being disingeneous to the extreme. It’s purely manufactured outrage over a non-existent slight by the most thin-skinned denialists and flag-draping ‘patriots’ who fear that even the mildest criticism of of any aspect of traditional American society will cause it to collapse into a hot mess of multiculturalism or…something. The upset is so wholly artificial it’s actually difficult to tell what they’re actually upset over except for losing an exclusive status. > > Stranger Maybe people are upset that the last freakin tradition where americans stood in solidarity for a few moments was going down the crapper. But no, it HAS be be about race, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/136 "2018-05-24T19:17:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And the player in question has stated directly what his intention was. > Is that also a non-sequitur…or are you saying he was lying? No, for the nth time, I’m saying the optics were bad and nobody is better off for it. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/137 "2018-05-24T19:18:33Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > And what point are you making? > > Post 97# > > That’s what I’m responding to. People did not boo (to my knowledge), when he remained seated, out of uniform, twice (aug 14th, 20th), and once when he was in uniform on the 26th. He did not take a knee until September 1st. That’s the first recorded booing I have. > > So, my assumption of your line of thinking, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that everybody booed because they read a hit piece on him, that contradicted his own words? > > That’s a nice theory, but it also happens to coincide with the first time he kneeled, in uniform, so there’s multiple explanations that don’t require that theory. The fans did not preemptively boo Kaepernick, it happened a few seconds after he and Reid took a knee (and two players is more conspicuous than 1, that’s the first time that happened too). My assumption would be that the people who bood bood because they they were confused and, having some critical shortage of brain cells, somehow connected “kneeling” to “disrespect” despite that being quite literally among the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. Kneeling has precisely two meanings: 1. You are showing submission, subservience, or respect or 1. Your shoe is untied. To assume that somebody kneeling is being disrespectful is stupid, full stop. (To keep assuming that after you’ve been explicitly corrected by the person doing it is _even stupider_, full stop.) If there’s a non-moronic argument defending this particular moronic leap of faith, I’ve yet to hear it. That said - some people are morons. (I’d be willing to hazard that foodball game audiences have more than their statistical share of morons, but that’s mostly because I don’t watch football.) In any sufficiently large crowd I would expect a certain amount of booing at _any_ unexpected action. That’s not an indicator that the booing was in any way justified. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/138 "2018-05-24T19:19:19Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Students being taught by someone who regards protest as “disrespectful” to America are confused about the fundamentals of the American system? Gee, I wonder why… Wow, you’re a dick. Tell the moderator, I don’t care. You are and always will be a dick. No need to ban me. I’m gone. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/139 "2018-05-24T19:20:23Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > No, for the nth time, I’m saying the optics were bad and nobody is better off for it. They pretty much exactly said that about letting minorities play in professional sports. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/140 "2018-05-24T19:20:57Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > No, for the nth time, I’m saying the optics were bad and nobody is better off for it. It’s my understanding that people have started paying more attention to BLM-type stuff as a result of it, so it’s very odd that you keep repeating the demonstrably false claim that “nobody is better off for it”. I will agree that “the optics were bad” - there were whole networks of lying bigots deliberately trying to _paint_ them as bad, and that counts as “optics”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=8)