# NFL: Stand for the anthem or stay in the locker room. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701 "2018-05-23T20:38:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/141 "2018-05-24T19:21:06Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Maybe people are upset that the last freakin tradition where americans stood in solidarity for a few moments was going down the crapper. But no, it HAS be be about race, doesn’t it? 1. It hasn’t been a tradition for players for _that_ long, and it has already been explained to you how it started. 2. Kneeling was a sign of prayer, not disrespect, until this kerfluffle. 3. If you’ve got a better explanation for this manufactured disrespect, I’d like to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/142 "2018-05-24T19:27:41Z")
Forced patriotism is counterproductive. That said, the precedent has been established that whoever can manipulate the largest mob can dictate terms. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/143 "2018-05-24T19:30:59Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > You guys keep coming up with non-sequiturs? Any more? That’s the pledge of allegiance, not the national anthem. And it was in a school. Which has established case law behind it since 1943. I wasn’t talking about the law. I was responding to **Velocity** , who said that one’s intention could be discerned from one’s actions and the context. So having committed a similar action in a similar context\*, I wanted to know what my intention must have been. \*If anything, the PoA is a much bigger deal than the National Anthem. The PoA is a group pledge of loyalty to the United States of America, which I was visibly declining to participate in, in front of a classroom full of fifth-graders, yet. The Anthem is a recounting, in song, of an incident that was part of a battle during the War of 1812. The significance of nonparticipation in singing or standing for the Anthem has basically been made up on the fly. (And those fans at Oriole Park at Camden Yards who shout “ **O!** ” in the middle of the National Anthem - clearly they ought to be thrown out of the country! ;)) ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/144 "2018-05-24T19:31:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. It hasn’t been a tradition for players for _that_ long, and it has already been explained to you how it started. > 2. Kneeling was a sign of prayer, not disrespect, until this kerfluffle. > 3. If you’ve got a better explanation for this manufactured disrespect, I’d like to hear it. Hey, I don’t watch football, don’t go to church, and guess what, I don’t have cable and watch Fox News! But I am familiar enough with the proceedings to realize this outrage was not necessarily artificially manufactured. Begbert claims this was misinterpreted by “confused morons”. Well, maybe that is true. I am not going to dispute that claim. But part of being a good communicator is knowing your audience, and if you know there are morons out there, maybe you shouldn’t have a muddled message that requires reading interviews to get the full context, and is easy fodder for detractors. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/145 "2018-05-24T19:38:02Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Hey, I don’t watch football, don’t go to church, and guess what, I don’t have cable and watch Fox News! But I am familiar enough with the proceedings to realize this outrage was not necessarily artificially manufactured. Begbert claims this was misinterpreted by “confused morons”. Well, maybe that is true. I am not going to dispute that claim. But part of being a good communicator is knowing your audience, and if you know there are morons out there, maybe you shouldn’t have a muddled message that requires reading interviews to get the full context, and is easy fodder for detractors. Hey, you sort of forgot to address any of the three points I brought up which(btw) had nothing to do with Fox News, cable, or going to church. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/146 "2018-05-24T19:40:05Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Wow, you’re a dick. > > Tell the moderator, I don’t care. You are and always will be a dick. > > No need to ban me. I’m gone. This is a warning for personal insults. There needn’t be talk of banning, but I would suggest cooling off, or using the Pit if that’s your thing. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/147 "2018-05-24T19:41:12Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Hey, I don’t watch football, don’t go to church, and guess what, I don’t have cable and watch Fox News! But I am familiar enough with the proceedings to realize this outrage was not necessarily artificially manufactured. Begbert claims this was misinterpreted by “confused morons”. Well, maybe that is true. I am not going to dispute that claim. But part of being a good communicator is knowing your audience, and if you know there are morons out there, maybe you shouldn’t have a muddled message that requires reading interviews to get the full context, and is easy fodder for detractors. I know, right? How dare people have to read about something before forming conclusions of the intentions of a protestor! It’s downright un-American to at least understand an issue before criticizing it! ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/148 "2018-05-24T19:44:35Z")
So was the combat veteran (IIRC) who advised Kaepernick on the kneeling gesture lying to him or doesn’t deserve respect because he’s a Commie, or…? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/149 "2018-05-24T19:49:10Z")
If the intent should be obvious without all the speechifyin’, then what was/is the purpose of all that right-wing speechifyin’? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/150 "2018-05-24T19:51:01Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > > [@astorian](#): > > > > I repeat, there are a million ways prominent African Americans can make their opinions known AND can educate white people who don’t understand the issues at stake. > > > > Just to give a personal example (one NOT involving an athlete): I teach at an affluent, predominantly white high school. Our principal, my boss, is an African American male… > > > > {shaggy dog story deleted} > > > > …But refusing to stand for the national anthem doesn’t get ANY message out. If Colin Kaepernick thought that would get America’s attention so he could tell them about the issues he cares about, he FAILED. Completely. He accomplished NOTHING beyond ticking people off. If you disrespect the flag, you don’t make people listen, you make them ANGRY! > > > > Kaepernick had a chance to educate people, but he chose to piss them off instead. That was a wasted opportunity. > > Cool story, brah. Now, are you going to actually explain how ‘taking the knee’ is disrespecting the nation, the flag, or military veterans in any way shape or form, or are you going to continue to dissemble with pointless anecdotes? Do not modify text inside the quote box for editorial purposes. Changing the quote to say {shaggy dog story deleted} is impermissible editorializing. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/151 "2018-05-24T20:06:08Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Hey, I don’t watch football, don’t go to church, and guess what, I don’t have cable and watch Fox News! But I am familiar enough with the proceedings to realize this outrage was not necessarily artificially manufactured. Begbert claims this was misinterpreted by “confused morons”. Well, maybe that is true. I am not going to dispute that claim. But part of being a good communicator is knowing your audience, and if you know there are morons out there, maybe you shouldn’t have a muddled message that requires reading interviews to get the full context, and is easy fodder for detractors. My main point is the message wasn’t muddled - and if it was, the direction of the confusion wouldn’t seem to lean towards “he’s being disrespectful!”, because that’s a bizarre interpretation of kneeling. Honestly, if I had seen the initial event (which I didn’t, of course), I would either think “Huh, that’s weird. Is he confused?” or “That’s an odd time to choose to tie your shoe.” Leaping to “he’s disrespectful” would seem to me to suggest that _merely by existing_ the player was being respectful, and drawing attention to himself makes it worse. Which is to say, extreme racism. (Which is raising the question of why they watch a sport with such a large percentage of black players, but whatever.) It’s only considered disrespectful _now_ because the “kneeling is somehow disrespectful!” message has been trumpeted far and wide by shitheads in the far-right media. Prior to all that shit-pouring deliberately warping the optics, it would be a really odd leap to make. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/152 "2018-05-24T20:17:07Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > So is flipping off the flag the flag and kneeling before the flag completely the same thing to you? > Seriously, this whole “Black people aren’t protesting right” thing is getting a little old. Where do you get the idea that flipping things off is disrespectful? I mean when people are sworn in to office they put their whole hand up. Is that five times as disrespectful as one middle finger up? Besides people make hand gestures all the time without it being disrespectful, when military people salute with their hands is that disrespectful? What about when people make the sign of the cross at church, are they being disrespectful? Obviously anyone who thinks that flipping someone off is disrespectful is a constitution hating racist. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/153 "2018-05-24T20:19:28Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Where do you get the idea that flipping things off is disrespectful? I mean when people are sworn in to office they put their whole hand up. Is that five times as disrespectful as one middle finger up? Besides people make hand gestures all the time without it being disrespectful, when military people salute with their hands is that disrespectful? What about when people make the sign of the cross at church, are they being disrespectful? > Obviously anyone who thinks that flipping someone off is disrespectful is a constitution hating racist. I guess you think you are making a point here? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/154 "2018-05-24T20:22:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Hey, you sort of forgot to address any of the three points I brought up which(btw) had nothing to do with Fox News, cable, or going to church. I’ve already addressed them in other posts. I don’t need to reiterate them every time you post. But, I’m in a generous mood. > [@](#): > > It hasn’t been a tradition for players for that long, and it has already been explained to you how it started. I know how it started. My perception of this is completely irrelevant. What I _am_ saying is poor messaging happened here, and played a big part in why the NLF is about to start fining. Pissed off at cops abusing black people? Go to a police station known for abusing people and chant and hold protest signs. You know, stuff even a moron can understand. > [@](#): > > Kneeling was a sign of prayer, not disrespect, until this kerfluffle. Irrelevant, since it is known by even small children that one is expected to stand, not kneel, during the national anthem. You guys keep conflating the national anthem with church, funerals, the pledge allegiance, and god knows what else, but you’re still conflating. > [@](#): > > If you’ve got a better explanation for this manufactured disrespect, I’d like to hear it. As I’ve said before, I don’t think it was entirely manufactured, and I think it was partially self inflicted. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/155 "2018-05-24T20:23:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Since this is a new thing, where did you get the idea that he was doing it to disrespect _anything_, up to and including the national anthem and the flag? He _said_ why he was doing it-do you believe he was lying about his intentions? Opting out of a ritual designed to show respect to something is a calculated way to show disrespect. It is obvious. If he said different he is lying. He did it to cause controversy so his political views would get more publicity. That was his intention. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/156 "2018-05-24T20:30:52Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > My main point is the message wasn’t muddled - and if it was, the direction of the confusion wouldn’t seem to lean towards “he’s being disrespectful!”, because that’s a bizarre interpretation of kneeling. Honestly, if I had seen the initial event (which I didn’t, of course), I would either think “Huh, that’s weird. Is he confused?” or “That’s an odd time to choose to tie your shoe.” > > Leaping to “he’s disrespectful” would seem to me to suggest that _merely by existing_ the player was being respectful, and drawing attention to himself makes it worse. Which is to say, extreme racism. (Which is raising the question of why they watch a sport with such a large percentage of black players, but whatever.) > > It’s only considered disrespectful _now_ because the “kneeling is somehow disrespectful!” message has been trumpeted far and wide by shitheads in the far-right media. Prior to all that shit-pouring deliberately warping the optics, it would be a really odd leap to make. What the hell dude? I don’t watch football, but before this were fans booing black players for no reason whatsoever any time in this century? They were booed AFTER kneeling, the FIRST TIME, and not once, to my knowledge, before that. It had nothing to do with “merely existing.” So your confusion might be “why is tying his shoes?”, but that’s you. I think it’s a fairly easy leap “for morons” from “Please stand for the National Anthem” to “I’m going to kneel instead” as a form of disrespect. It’s muddled. If a 4th grader doesn’t immediately understand your message, it’s probably not a good message to be spreading on national television. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/157 "2018-05-24T20:32:53Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Opting out of a ritual designed to show respect to something is a calculated way to show disrespect. It is obvious. If he said different he is lying. > He did it to cause controversy so his political views would get more publicity. That was his intention. Brings to mind: _“Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.”_ ~Oscar Wilde ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/158 "2018-05-24T20:37:13Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > What the hell dude? I don’t watch football, but before this were fans booing black players for no reason whatsoever any time in this century? They were booed AFTER kneeling, the FIRST TIME, and not once, to my knowledge, before that. It had nothing to do with “merely existing.” So your confusion might be “why is tying his shoes?”, but that’s you. I think it’s a fairly easy leap “for morons” from “Please stand for the National Anthem” to “I’m going to kneel instead” as a form of disrespect. It’s muddled. If a 4th grader doesn’t immediately understand your message, it’s probably not a good message to be spreading on national television. Why was knelling NOT disrespectful before this widely publicized incident? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/159 "2018-05-24T20:39:05Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Opting out of a ritual designed to show respect to something is a calculated way to show disrespect. It is obvious. If he said different he is lying. > He did it to cause controversy so his political views would get more publicity. That was his intention. No it’s not. It’s not disrespectful to choose not to participate in a ritual, be it religious, nationalistic, virtue signaling, etc that one does not agree with. What Kaepernick did vis kneeling should have been more or less ignored. It wasn’t offensive and it was actually brave. Now you may disagree with his message or stance. That’s your right as well. But ascribing motives or financially ruining/harming a person over a difference in point of view is disturbing and dangerous. The sad thing is that is now the accepted way of handling differences of opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701/160 "2018-05-24T20:40:44Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > I think it’s a fairly easy leap “for morons” from “Please stand for the National Anthem” to “I’m going to kneel instead” as a form of disrespect. It’s muddled. If a 4th grader doesn’t immediately understand your message, it’s probably not a good message to be spreading on national television. I wonder if these same people view flying the Confederate flag as disrespectful to the US? After all, it is the flag of treason against the US. I’m willing to bet they don’t see it that way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-stand-for-the-anthem-or-stay-in-the-locker-room/814701.md?page=9)