# NFL: Two simple rules question **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 15, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-two-simple-rules-question/609635 "2012-01-15T21:29:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-two-simple-rules-question/609635/41 "2012-01-16T22:16:13Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Where the ball is doesn’t matter…it’s where his feet (or, if not his feet, the first part of his body which touches the ground after he makes the catch) are. Out of bounds. > > … Again, it doesn’t matter where the ball is where the catch is made – what matters is establishing oneself as being in bounds by landing on the ground. A kickoff where the ball lands out of bounds, rolls out of bounds, or however the kickoff ends up going out of bounds is a significant penalty. Imagine a kickoff is rolling near the sideline but the ball remains in the field of play. The recieving player can run up to the ball, stick his pinky toe on the ground out of bounds, then grab the ball that’s rolling around in the field of play while his toe remains out of bounds. Result: Kickoff out of bounds penalty, even though the ball itself never left the field of play. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-two-simple-rules-question/609635/42 "2012-01-16T22:34:24Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > The force out rule was removed 2 or 3 years ago. Good memory; I thought it was longer ago than that. The change was instituted before the 2008 season. [http://blogs.nbcsports.com/home/archives/2008/04/rules-changes-in-force-out-coi.html](http://blogs.nbcsports.com/home/archives/2008/04/rules-changes-in-force-out-coi.html) ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-two-simple-rules-question/609635/43 "2012-01-16T23:33:17Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > If the receiver catches the ball in the air, and gets pushed / carried out of bounds, so that he doesn’t ever touch the ground in bounds, it’s no catch. Again, it doesn’t matter where the ball is where the catch is made – what matters is establishing oneself as being in bounds by landing on the ground. I would question this. Since a runner can fall on top of a prone player and it counts as being down, wouldn’t a DB actually _carrying_ a receiver out of bounds count as contact with the ground? This is substantially different than hitting or shoving a jumping player out of bounds. It should also be noted that once they get out of bounds, the defender now has to be very careful how he treats the receiver or it counts as a late hit and is a 15-yard penalty and automatic first down. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-two-simple-rules-question/609635/44 "2012-01-16T23:41:22Z")
A runner can land on another player and not be ruled down. What rule about prone defenders are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-two-simple-rules-question/609635/45 "2012-01-17T00:10:27Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > I would question this. Since a runner can fall on top of a prone player and it counts as being down, That does not count as being down. Only the ground counts, not other players. The premise of catching a receiver and carrying him out of bounds is an interesting one. My gut reaction is that once a defender is holding the ball carrier, the play is whistled dead due to forward progress being stopped, since the ball carrier is no longer in control of forward momentum. That usually results in “down by contact,” but in this hypothetical the receiver never touched the ground. Even still, I think that would be down by contact, catch at the spot where the defender picked up the receiver. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-two-simple-rules-question/609635/46 "2012-01-17T01:42:14Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > That does not count as being down. Only the ground counts, not other players. Often in a quarterback sneak, the QB never touches the ground, just lands on his center. He is, nevertheless, ruled down. ---
**Author:** ![Jilaad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jilaad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jilaad)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-two-simple-rules-question/609635/47 "2012-01-17T01:51:10Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Often in a quarterback sneak, the QB never touches the ground, just lands on his center. He is, nevertheless, ruled down. This would be an instance of forward progress stopped in the field of play. Whether he’s standing up or laying on a defender isn’t relevant to that ruling. To be ruled down by contact, any part of the body other than the feet or hands has to actually touch the actual ground. You’ll see plays sometimes where a tackler brings down the ball carrier in a roll, the tackler lands on his back and the ball carrier never touches the ground, and can get up and run. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-two-simple-rules-question/609635/48 "2012-01-17T01:51:50Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Often in a quarterback sneak, the QB never touches the ground, just lands on his center. He is, nevertheless, ruled down. He is ruled down by lack of forward progress, not as a result of being down by contact. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-two-simple-rules-question/609635/49 "2012-01-17T01:51:55Z")
What’s to stop a large defensive back who’s been burned on a play from carrying the defensive back out of bounds on his shoulders resulting in an incomplete pass? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-two-simple-rules-question/609635/50 "2012-01-17T01:57:33Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > What’s to stop a large defensive back who’s been burned on a play from carrying the defensive back out of bounds on his shoulders resulting in an incomplete pass? If they do it wrong, it’s almost a sure pass interference penalty call and the ball is spotted at the location of the foul. Even if they do it right, it requires the receiver to be close enough to the sideline that the DB can actually do this. I suppose, in theory, a DB could carry a receiver all the way to the sideline from the center of the field, but DBs aren’t picked for their strength. If they’re big enough to carry a 200lb man any significant distance in a couple seconds, they’re probably not fast enough to defense a pass. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-two-simple-rules-question/609635/51 "2012-01-17T02:19:15Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Good memory; I thought it was longer ago than that. The change was instituted before the 2008 season. > > [http://blogs.nbcsports.com/home/archives/2008/04/rules-changes-in-force-out-coi.html](http://blogs.nbcsports.com/home/archives/2008/04/rules-changes-in-force-out-coi.html) Ok the “10 year” thing was throwing me off. This makes more sense. I definitely remember not that long ago (probably just before the change) seeing an official running to the back of the end zone and making a pushing motion to indicate that the receiver had been pushed out and a touchdown was to be awarded. ---
**Author:** ![azraiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@azraiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/azraiel)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-two-simple-rules-question/609635/52 "2012-01-17T02:44:32Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > Possible TD questions, involving the ball crossing the plane of the endzone. > > 1. Another player catches the ball in bounds on a leap. Before he lands, the DB hits him low, so both feet land out of bounds. The arms with the ball, however, stay in the endzone. Is it a TD? > [@kenobi\_65](#): > > See above. No catch. Tiny clarification for the questioner (and in line with **kenobi’s** first point). If whatever portion of the body touches the ground first is in-bounds, then the reception is good. Say a DB hits and cartwheels a receiver who has established possession. If the receiver’s hand, forearm, face, etc. hits in-bounds before the feet touch out-of-bounds the play is ruled a reception. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-two-simple-rules-question/609635/53 "2012-01-17T03:08:25Z")
> [@azraiel](#): > > Tiny clarification for the questioner (and in line with **kenobi’s** first point). If whatever portion of the body touches the ground first is in-bounds, then the reception is good. > > Say a DB hits and cartwheels a receiver who has established possession. If the receiver’s hand, forearm, face, etc. hits in-bounds before the feet touch out-of-bounds the play is ruled a reception. Exactly. As John Madden used to say: “one knee equals two feet.” ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-two-simple-rules-question/609635/54 "2012-01-17T08:30:34Z")
> [@divemaster](#): > > No, as **kenobi 65** explained, this used to be the case. But now it is 2 feet (or equivalent)–or no catch. Interesting. Obviously I wasn’t aware of the rule change. > [@](#): > > The league’s 32 teams today voted to do away with the forceout rule, one that many believed was too subjective to call properly. It was too subjective. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-two-simple-rules-question/609635/55 "2012-01-17T13:39:14Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#): > > 1. If the ball carrier goes down with a couple of yards to the end zone – say his knee touches the ground – can he a) get up to his feet and walk in for a touch down, b) crawl his way to the end zone for a touch down, and if b) is Yes, then c) even if a defense player touches him? > [@Xema](#): > > If he went down as the result of contact from the other team, or was touched by them when down, the play is over. If not he can get up and run, or crawl, to further advance the ball. Just to note that college football rules are different in this case: in college, if a runner’s knee (or anything other than his feet or hands) touches the ground, he is down, whether or not there has been contact. So if a college player slips and falls, the play is over. If an NFL player slips (or goes down to catch a pass) when there has been no defensive contact, then he can get back up (or roll, which is quicker than crawling and has actually happened) and keep moving. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-two-simple-rules-question/609635/56 "2012-01-17T15:25:34Z")
And NFL rookies are known to mess that up, like defenders not reaching down to tap a slipped runner, or a runner slipping and dropping the ball; both thinking the play was over… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-two-simple-rules-question/609635.md?page=2)