# NFL: Underinflated Balls? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 21, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515 "2015-01-21T20:17:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/181 "2015-01-25T16:31:10Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I’ll see your Green-Eliis and raise you the 2013 season, where the Patriots ranked in the bottom third of the league in fumbles. Great. Where did they rank in 2012, 2011, and 2010? 3rd, 3rd and 1st. Do you know what cherry picking is, Ellis Dee? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/182 "2015-01-25T16:46:48Z")
“Usually towards the top of the rankings” is nowhere near “there’s no possible explanation except cheating.” ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/183 "2015-01-25T16:53:07Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Great. Where did they rank in 2012, 2011, and 2010? > > 3rd, 3rd and 1st. > > Do you know what cherry picking is, Ellis Dee? Just to clarify, that is their ranking in plays per fumble. So, for the past five years, their ranking in plays per fumble is 2, 22, 3, 3, 1. For comparison, the closest teams in terms of geography - which also play in open stadiums, are the Giants and Jets. Their rankings over the past five years in plays per fumble were 15, 28, 5, 13 and 22 (Giants) and 25, 6, 30, 25, 13. The dome teams that **Ellis Dee** pointed to earlier? The Colts rankings in plays per fumble over the past five years were 28, 4, 11, 26 and 3. The Falcons were 6, 10, 1, 2, 2. I pulled the stats from the NFLs website to generate these numbers. So, outside of 2013, the Patriots have been in the top 3 teams in this stat for 4 of 5 years. They have outperformed dome teams and clearly are not even close to teams playing in similar environments. It’s also important to note that these are rankings, so they don’t even give a sense of the magnitude of the Patriots’ performance relative to the rest of the league. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/184 "2015-01-25T16:58:52Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > “Usually towards the top of the rankings” is nowhere near “there’s no possible explanation except cheating.” This is 100% right. It’s just that what came first was the explanation (illegal footballs) and now people are looking at the outcomes (extreme fumble prevention). ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/185 "2015-01-25T17:20:57Z")
> [@BigDadWolf](#): > > When all this came up I was about ready to throw away my nearly 40 years of allegiance to the Patriots. Now, I hope they go out and beat the sh!t out of the Seahawks. (I don’t think that will happen because the Seahawks are a great team.) But until someone can produce evidence of tampering, I think this is just Patriot haters wanting to hate the Patriots. This is just the most perfect description of how cognitive dissonance feels and how it almost always is resolved. Thanks for sharing this with us. ---
**Author:** ![BigDadWolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@BigDadWolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigDadWolf)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/186 "2015-01-25T17:41:40Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > This is just the most perfect description of how cognitive dissonance feels and how it almost always is resolved. Thanks for sharing this with us. I can be dense so it’s frankly hard for me to know if this is meant sarcastically or sincerely. If the Patriots outright cheating I would renounce them. Frankly, as the years go by my caring about who wins or loses the NFL is dwindling quickly anyways. I believe my points do explain how I went from being angry at the Patriots apparently cheating to seeing that there is nothing but allegations of cheating with plenty of reasonable explanations as to how the balls could have ended up at a lower pressure (including legal gamesmanship by the Patriots). I would welcome discussion as to the points made but unless someone can point out a flaw in my points or bring up other facts then it is time to put this to rest and discuss the Super Bowl match-up. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/187 "2015-01-25T17:46:38Z")
> [@BigDadWolf](#): > > I can be dense so it’s frankly hard for me to know if this is meant sarcastically or sincerely. > > If the Patriots outright cheating I would renounce them. Frankly, as the years go by my caring about who wins or loses the NFL is dwindling quickly anyways. > > I believe my points do explain how I went from being angry at the Patriots apparently cheating to seeing that there is nothing but allegations of cheating with plenty of reasonable explanations as to how the balls could have ended up at a lower pressure (including legal gamesmanship by the Patriots). I would welcome discussion as to the points made but unless someone can point out a flaw in my points or bring up other facts then it is time to put this to rest and discuss the Super Bowl match-up. But, but fumbles! Ball saunas! Spygate! ---
**Author:** ![BigDadWolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@BigDadWolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigDadWolf)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/188 "2015-01-25T18:00:11Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > But, but fumbles! Ball saunas! Spygate! fumbles - the Patriots are better coached, are one of the better teams at minimizing fumbles, the QB handles the ball better than most, and they do what they can within the rules to keep PSI as low as possible. This is a red herring at best. Ball Saunas - I don’t see anywhere in the rules that the air in the ball has to be a certain temperature when it’s given to the official for pregame inspection so even if this were true, what rule was broken? If ball pressure is that important then the NFL should make a rule that the balls have to be at ambient outdoor temperature before inspection. Spygate - if a team breaks a rule once and are therefore are guilty of all subsequent accusations, then each team may as well be disbanded on they are found breaking a rule. That would make for a entertaining league :rolleyes:. This is not an issue. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/189 "2015-01-25T18:12:49Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > [http://nesn.com/2015/01/bill-belichick-patriots-followed-nfl-rules-didnt-heat-alter-footballs/](http://nesn.com/2015/01/bill-belichick-patriots-followed-nfl-rules-didnt-heat-alter-footballs/) > > So, we can put a fork in the ball sauna hypothesis. Belicheck specifically denied putting the ball in a heated environment. He apparently is blaming… friction. > > Yet, he also says that officials are instructed to inflate the balls to 12.5. > > The Patriots ran tests, and even so could only account for a 1.0 psi deflation in the halftime measurement. We don’t need to stick a fork in the “ball sauna” hypothesis because _ **no one has mentioned “ball saunas”** _. That being said: you’re now taking Belichick’s word on this? So, why are we still talking about it? He clearly said that the Patriots did nothing illegal. Or are you only listening to the things he said that fit your personal narrative? ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/190 "2015-01-25T18:40:34Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > We don’t have anywhere near enough information to really draw any conclusions. If the Colts balls were inflated to the 13-13.5 range before the game, then the expected pressure drop due to cold wouldn’t likely take them below 12.5. If all the balls were taken inside to be measured, and the measuring took several minutes, then the last balls to be measured would recovered some of the lost pressure. If the Colts but not the Patriots were keeping the balls warmer on the sidelines through the use of heaters, then the Pats’ balls would get softer but the Colts’ wouldn’t. > > I wouldn’t put it past the Pats to cheat in this way, but the information that’s been made public thus far doesn’t support a conclusion either way. Agreed, valid point. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/191 "2015-01-25T18:55:49Z")
> **[Bill Nye says Bill Belichick made no sense on DeflateGate explanation](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2015/01/25/bill-nye-says-bill-belichick-made-no-sense-on-deflategate-explanation/)** > > Of course, the Science Guy also said, "Go Seahawks" and HeadSmart Labs disagree. Oh oh. Bill Nye the Science Guy just took a dump on the science explanation that Bill Belicheck tried to fly. ---
**Author:** ![Monocracy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monocracy/32/4493_2.png) [@Monocracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monocracy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/192 "2015-01-25T19:08:17Z")
Screw Bill Nye. I’m going to wait until Mr. Wizard weighs in with an explanation. > [@](#): > > Nye didn’t offer a lot in the way of specifics and, of course, as you weigh his opinion, note that Nye, who formerly worked for Boeing in Seattle, closed with “Go Seahawks.” ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/193 "2015-01-25T19:21:28Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/wp/2015/01/25/bill-nye-says-bill-belichick-made-no-sense-on-deflategate-explanation/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/wp/2015/01/25/bill-nye-says-bill-belichick-made-no-sense-on-deflategate-explanation/) > > Oh oh. Bill Nye the Science Guy just took a dump on the science explanation that Bill Belicheck tried to fly. Must be HUGE news! [I found the same story on B/R!](http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2341682-bill-nye-the-science-guy-reacts-to-bill-belichicks-response-to-deflategate) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/194 "2015-01-25T19:25:33Z")
I can’t be the only one envisioning a person wearing both a bow tie and a hoodie with cutoff sleeves describing the scientific properties of a 3-4 defense on a Sunday morning television show. Bill Nye Bellicheck. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/195 "2015-01-25T19:59:31Z")
Eh, I like Bill Nye, but given that other scientists have used actual, you know, science to show that pressure can change by means other than manual deflation, I’m going to wait until Nye uses actual, you know, science to demonstrate why it’s impossible. ---
**Author:** ![chizzuk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e36b37/32.png) [@chizzuk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chizzuk)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/196 "2015-01-25T20:46:13Z")
[Source: Not all balls were 2 PSI under](http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/25/nfl-bears-plenty-of-blame-for-deflategate/) The one the Colts had, per the PFT source, was 2 PSI under. The others were apparently closer to 1 under. I think the Colts deliberately let more air out of the ball they intercepted to get the Pats in trouble. I have no evidence of this, but evidence hasn’t mattered so far, so I feel free to make this accusation. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/197 "2015-01-25T20:52:57Z")
How about actual reality at Popular Science: > **[Football Physics And The Science Of Deflategate](https://www.popsci.com/football-physics-and-science-deflategate/)** > > Does the ideal gas law explain 11 deflated footballs? > [@](#): > > …unless they did the pre-game testing of the balls in a sauna, or the post-game investigation in a meat locker, thermodynamics alone can’t get the Patriots off the hook. Other science types: [http://www.whdh.com/story/27907014/cold-weather-not-likely-cause-of-football-deflation](http://www.whdh.com/story/27907014/cold-weather-not-likely-cause-of-football-deflation) Also: > **[The Science Behind Deflated Footballs](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/science-behind-deflated-footballs-180953983/)** > > Could failure to inflate give a team a strategic advantage? > [@](#): > > This post originally cited aBoston Heraldstory, whichreported that at least one physics professorthought the temperature could not have been the only factor in the balls’ deflation. But we’ve since heard from that professor that there was a miscommunication with theHeraldthat is being clarified and that though temperature can account for a small change in the ball pressure, anything substantially larger would call for another explanation. So we’ve updated the post to remove the misreported information and regret the error. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/198 "2015-01-25T21:09:19Z")
Uh Oh Hector, if it turns out that the tested footballs were all closer to 1 psi under 12.5, temperature difference alone accounts for the 1 psi no need to even get into if the refs even used a gauge (absolutely no confirmation on this) Or whether, if they did use a gauge, that they would still pprove a ball that read, say, 12.0 (absolutely no confirmation-- the ONLY confirmed info is that 1) patriots balls tested under, at halftime, by an unstated amount and 2) NFL looking into how that could have happened. ) Man, that must be really disappointing for you to read that latest report. Everything for your story hinges on a 2.0 psi difference. And even at 2.0 there’s a whole lot of reasonable doubt… but if its 1…you got literally NOTHING. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/199 "2015-01-25T21:38:18Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > no need to even get into if the refs even used a gauge (absolutely no confirmation on this) [http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/01/23/patriots-footballs-were-inspected-approved-before-afc-title-game/FxnyFsD2KjSEWETZKLTqeL/story.html](http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/01/23/patriots-footballs-were-inspected-approved-before-afc-title-game/FxnyFsD2KjSEWETZKLTqeL/story.html) No, the Boston Globe did report that all 24 balls were gauge tested before the game. > [@](#): > > According to an NFL source with direct knowledge of the situation, Anderson inspected all 24 of the Patriots’ footballs with a pressure gauge supplied by the league, as well as all 24 footballs from the Colts. All 48 footballs were found to be within the allowable range of 12.5-13.5 pounds per square inch. So, no sauna, no squeezing the Charmin… But still, keep hope alive! ---
**Author:** ![chizzuk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e36b37/32.png) [@chizzuk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chizzuk)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/200 "2015-01-25T21:56:23Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > [http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/01/23/patriots-footballs-were-inspected-approved-before-afc-title-game/FxnyFsD2KjSEWETZKLTqeL/story.html](http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/01/23/patriots-footballs-were-inspected-approved-before-afc-title-game/FxnyFsD2KjSEWETZKLTqeL/story.html) > > No, the Boston Globe did report that all 24 balls were gauge tested before the game. > > So, no sauna, no squeezing the Charmin… > > But still, keep hope alive! Indoors or outdoors? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515.md?page=11)