# NFL: Underinflated Balls? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 21, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515 "2015-01-21T20:17:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/221 "2015-01-26T23:49:31Z")
Actually bootis mode is more like: irrelevant according to newest reports that the footballs were actually closer to 11.5 psi ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/222 "2015-01-26T23:50:27Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > Actually bootis mode is more like: com No “extensive evidence” yet - a.k.a. wild spitballing - as to what the locker room attendant was doing with the balls? ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/223 "2015-01-26T23:53:57Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > No “extensive evidence” yet - a.k.a. wild spitballing - as to what the locker room attendant was doing with the balls? I think that’s supposed to come from your end. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/224 "2015-01-27T00:00:02Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > I think that’s supposed to come from your end. Okay, so the Patriots have 11 illegally underinflated footballs… and now there’s video of a locker room attendant taking the balls from the officials’ room into another room before taking them to the field… and I’m the one speculating wildly? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/225 "2015-01-27T00:16:24Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > …2) Why weren’t the Colts balls under? Well, firstly, that has not been confirmed, and even if it is confirmed, then > a) maybe luck, like Aaron Rodgers, prefers inflation over 13? > b) maybe they were tested AFTER the patriots, and sat in a warm room,which would bring their pressure back to standard? Of course :smack:, by halftime, after it had been pointed out to the officials that the Patriot’s balls used during the 1st half were under-inflated, the balls were checked and found to be under-inflated. The officials would then simply assume that the Colt’s balls must be between 12.5 and 13.5 psi and there would be no reason, what-so-freaking-ever, to actually test the Colt’s balls before they were used in the 2nd half. “It seems so obvious”, said no one ever. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/226 "2015-01-27T00:23:59Z")
> [@standingwave](#): > > **Neil deGrasse Tyson** Debunks Belichick’s DeflateGate Science: > _"For the Patriots to blame a change in temperature for 15% lower-pressures, requires balls to be inflated with **125-degree air.** _" > [Neil deGrasse Tyson Debunks Belichick’s DeflateGate Science](http://www.mediaite.com/online/neil-degrasse-tyson-debunks-belichicks-deflategate-science/) I’d like to see how Tyson calculated that, because: [ol] [li]it’s at odds with what I calculated, and[/li][li]there wasn’t a 15% change in pressure,[/li][/ol] Working backwards from Tyson’s number, a ball inflated at 125 °F (52 °C, or 325 K) would lose 15% of its pressure with a temperature change of 49 K. So Tyson’s final temperature would be 3 °C, or 37 °F. Seems like a reasonable estimate for the on-field temperature that night. He’s wrong about the pressure change, though - see [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18074045&postcount=80) for the explanation. With a pressure change of 7.4% (or less - more recent reports have the balls at 11.5 psi instead of 10.5), the drop in pressure is easily explained by ambient temperature changes. Changing temperatures also explain the conflicting reports of the “final” pressure checks on the balls, too. Say the balls were taken in from the field and checked for pressure immediately - they could very well (without being tampered with) check out at 10.5 psi while they’re still cold. Say people start to freak out about that - they start making phone calls, league officials start moving, and half an hour later there’s a small group of very serious NFL people in the locker room. Because they NFL wants to figure out what’s happened before a million different reports hit the media (oops!), they kick everyone else out and the recheck the balls… except they’ve been sitting in that room warming up the whole time. Now they check out at 11.5 psi - still below the spec, but not by as much as the initial reports. I know it’s tempting to see cheating everywhere, but there have been literally zero reports about this question that can’t be explained using high school physics. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/227 "2015-01-27T00:39:43Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > [Deflategate fallout: NFL focusing on Patriots' locker-room attendant | FOX Sports](http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/deflategate-fallout-nfl-focusing-on-patriots-locker-room-attendant-012615) > NFL focusing on locker room attendant as key person of interest. > > Perhaps he was taking them to the sauna? Or science-sounding reasons? Or Aaron Rodgers? > > Keep hope alive Bootis! Or he had to pee. At any rate, potentially damning, but I’ll still contentedly wait for conclusive evidence in the meantime. Incidentally, is there a reason you can’t just discuss this without making snide and dismissive comments at every turn? ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/228 "2015-01-27T00:42:33Z")
> [@standingwave](#): > > **Neil deGrasse Tyson** Debunks Belichick’s DeflateGate Science: > _"For the Patriots to blame a change in temperature for 15% lower-pressures, requires balls to be inflated with **125-degree air.** _" > [Neil deGrasse Tyson Debunks Belichick’s DeflateGate Science](http://www.mediaite.com/online/neil-degrasse-tyson-debunks-belichicks-deflategate-science/) He appears to be making the same mistake that several other people have made of using gauge pressure instead of absolute pressure. A 15% drop from an absolute pressure of 27.2psi (gauge pressure plus atmospheric pressure) would result in a ball at about 8.5psi (gauge). ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/229 "2015-01-27T00:45:24Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Of course :smack:, by halftime, after it had been pointed out to the officials that the Patriot’s balls used during the 1st half were under-inflated, the balls were checked and found to be under-inflated. > > The officials would then simply assume that the Colt’s balls must be between 12.5 and 13.5 psi and there would be no reason, what-so-freaking-ever, to actually test the Colt’s balls before they were used in the 2nd half. “It seems so obvious”, said no one ever. What does this even mean? 1. no one knows what the colts balls tested out to be beyond what was said in a vague unconfirmed report, and there sure seem to be some conflicting reports out there 2. if Luck prefers a higher inflation, like Rodgers, the colts balls would test at 12.5 or over even with unpreventable weather inflation of around 1 psi 3. it doesn’t matter why. Inflate a football to 12.5 inside at 70 degrees, take it outside at 40 degrees for 3 hours. It WILL have dropped by around 1 psi. That specific scenario is undeniable. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/230 "2015-01-27T01:18:28Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > Or he had to pee. > > At any rate, potentially damning, but I’ll still contentedly wait for conclusive evidence in the meantime. Bingo. What Hentor fails to realize is that nobody is arguing that its undeniable the the Patriots didnt break a rule. Of course that’s a possibility, one of many. Since Hentor is arguing (if that’s what you’d call it) that it is undeniable that the Patriot DID break a rule, I think he assumes anyone who disagrees with him must be arguing the polar opposite. Hentor, the argument against you is that it’s extremely shortsighted, and irresponsible to take the stance that a vague allegation, supported by nothing but unconfirmed reports from unnamed sources (none of which, if true, would even be a smoking gun- they would simply provide more questions needing answers) surely shows guilt, _ **just because you want it to be true** _. I don’t care if it does turn out to be true. As a Pats fan, sure I would be disappointed, but the reason I’ve posted more in this thread than I have in the past year combined, is I’m so tired of seeing the attitude and reasoning you present to push for an agenda. In this thread, ok whatever, I get that it’s just football. For all I know, you’re totally reasonable everywhere else. But this line of thought is everywhere these days, and it’s dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/231 "2015-01-27T01:31:04Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > Great! You can have your high school science teacher turned TV entertainer and ill go with, you know, [real live functioning physicists](https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/01/26/scientists-agree-that-football-will-lose-air-pressure-when-moved-cooler-place/2KfFPHn9dARXXCwMgBMSkO/story.html) > > So now that multiple [reports are coming in](http://www.csnne.com/blog/patriots-talk/pft-patriots-footballs-may-have-been-closer-115-psi) that it turns out the footballs were actually all around 1 psi under, well, if that’s the case then it turns out that good old pure simple physics is the only necessary explanation after all At least the “high school science teacher turned TV entertainer” was intelligent enough to know that the balls were not measured with a gauge on the field but rather inside with similar temperatures to where they were first measured at. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/232 "2015-01-27T01:33:20Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > At least the “high school science teacher turned TV entertainer” was intelligent enough to know that the balls were not measured with a gauge on the field but rather inside with similar temperatures to where they were first measured at. Did they give them time to warm up? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/233 "2015-01-27T01:40:23Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > Did they give them time to warm up? Given they were first half balls, at least an hour… ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/234 "2015-01-27T01:40:24Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > Bingo. What Hentor fails to realize is that nobody is arguing that its undeniable the the Patriots didnt break a rule. Of course that’s a possibility, one of many. Since Hentor is arguing (if that’s what you’d call it) that it is undeniable that the Patriot DID break a rule, I think he assumes anyone who disagrees with him must be arguing the polar opposite. > > Hentor, the argument against you is that it’s extremely shortsighted, and irresponsible to take the stance that a vague allegation, supported by nothing but unconfirmed reports from unnamed sources (none of which, if true, would even be a smoking gun- they would simply provide more questions needing answers) surely shows guilt, _ **just because you want it to be true** _. > > I don’t care if it does turn out to be true. As a Pats fan, sure I would be disappointed, but the reason I’ve posted more in this thread than I have in the past year combined, is I’m so tired of seeing the attitude and reasoning you present to push for an agenda. In this thread, ok whatever, I get that it’s just football. For all I know, you’re totally reasonable everywhere else. But this line of thought is everywhere these days, and it’s dangerous. Please cite anywhere that I ever said that it was undeniable. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/235 "2015-01-27T01:46:32Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Given they were first half balls, at least an hour… What? As far as I know they measured the balls at halftime, found them under-inflated, inflated them, and brought them back. Where is the hour? ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/236 "2015-01-27T01:48:18Z")
The halftime break lasts [12 minutes](http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/beginnersguidetofootball). ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/237 "2015-01-27T02:04:47Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > Did they give them time to warm up? The Colts’ balls didn’t need to warm back up. They were almost unused. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/238 "2015-01-27T02:18:39Z")
And now Bob Kraft steps to the mic and also tells the NFL to put up, or shut up. “I want to make it clear, I believe unconditionally that the New England Patriots have done nothing inappropriate in this process or are in violation of NFL rules,” Kraft said. “If the Wells investigation is not able to definitively determine that our organization tampered with the air pressure in the footballs, I would expect and hope the league would apologize to our entire team, and in particular to Coach Belichick and Tom Brady, for what they’ve had to endure this week,” [http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-wants-nfl-apology-if-investigation-clears-team-012749667.html](http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-wants-nfl-apology-if-investigation-clears-team-012749667.html) ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/239 "2015-01-27T02:24:31Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Please cite anywhere that I ever said that it was undeniable. > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Oh, we’re pretending that the Patriots were not caught. It’s fun to make believe boys and girls! > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > We can speculate “evidence” of magic deflation fairies all day long. Maybe I misunderstood this one- maybe you believe in magic deflation fairies. I took this as an attempt to dismiss previously demonstrated reasonable scenarios as impossible by attempting to ridicule their very possibility with a trite little catchphrase instead of providing a reasoned counterargument. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/240 "2015-01-27T02:47:51Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > Maybe I misunderstood this one- maybe you believe in magic deflation fairies. I took this as an attempt to dismiss previously demonstrated reasonable scenarios as impossible by attempting to ridicule their very possibility with a trite little catchphrase instead of providing a reasoned counterargument. No. I’ve been mocking the desperate straw-grasping. You’ve been spit-balling shit and calling it “extensive evidence.” A single report becomes multiple sources. Like I said, I get it. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful motivation. You’d rather not believe the most parsimonious explanation given the facts at hand. I have become very interested by the fumbles data and the circumstantial evidence regarding Brady, the timing of the push for the change and the timing of the Patriots’ dramatic improvement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515.md?page=13)