# NFL: Underinflated Balls? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 21, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515 "2015-01-21T20:17:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/121 "2015-01-24T04:53:53Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > [Ballghazi: The New England Patriots lose an insanely low number of fumbles. Coincidence?](http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2015/01/ballghazi_the_new_england_patriots_lose_an_insanely_low_number_of_fumbles.html) > > This link presents an analysis of fumbles lost per offensive play for all teams in the league. > > It shows that the rate at which the Patriots fumbled the ball over the last five years was dramatically lower than every other team in the league. The probability of seeing a difference like that observed just by chance was 1 in 16,000. > > The analysis also showed that this supernormal ability of the Patriots to hold on to the ball suddenly appeared in 2007. Since that time, they have been #1 in the league in this stat every year. > > Cheating bastards. Interestingly, if subtle differences in ball psi has a direct correlation on fumbles, it would be assumed that Green Bay, who has been noted for being unique in the fact they actually use a much more highly inflated ball, even above the league requirements, should fumble more frequently, yet they rank quite highly on those charts. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/122 "2015-01-24T05:10:20Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > Interestingly, if subtle differences in ball psi has a direct correlation on fumbles, it would be assumed that Green Bay, who has been noted for being unique in the fact they actually use a much more highly inflated ball, even above the league requirements, should fumble more frequently, yet they rank quite highly on those charts. Much more highly inflated? How often have the Packers been found to be overinflating balls? How often have they been found to tamper with the balls after inspection? It’s getting to the point that the Patriots’ apologists only response is “But Aaron Rodgers!” If you check out the comments section of the Boston Globe, you’ll see why Boston area keyboards will suddenly be failing due to worn out A and R buttons. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/123 "2015-01-24T05:21:54Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > It’s getting to the point that the Patriots’ apologists only response is “But Aaron Rodgers!” Only to the point that its worth noting that other prominent QB’s are very casual about the concept of trying to get non conforming balls by the refs, which implies that its not a big deal or secret, and that its something that’s not that hard to do > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > How often have they been found to tamper with the balls after inspection? That’s an easy one! Same amount of times as the Patriots. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/124 "2015-01-24T11:40:57Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > That’s an easy one! Same amount of times as the Patriots. I don’t remember the time that the Packers were caught. Oh, we’re pretending that the Patriots were not caught. It’s fun to make believe boys and girls! ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/125 "2015-01-24T13:20:13Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I don’t remember the time that the Packers were caught. > > Oh, we’re pretending that the Patriots were not caught. It’s fun to make believe boys and girls! The Pats haven’t been caught tampering with balls after they’ve been inspected. We have no idea whether they snuck underinflated balls through the referee’s inspection or if they let air out later. The former seems more likely to me. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/126 "2015-01-24T13:36:35Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I don’t remember the time that the Packers were caught. > > Oh, we’re pretending that the Patriots were not caught. It’s fun to make believe boys and girls! Sorry, wan’t the question “found to tamper with balls after inspection”? Because of course no one has been found to have done that. It’s been shown how easy, completely plausible, not against the rules, and likely common it is to pass footballs through a ref’s inspection that are under or over standard air pressure. I can understand why that fact would be something you’d choose to completely ignore, since it goes against your preferred narrative. Let’s just “make believe boys and girls” that any possibility of that _other_ scenario doesn’t exist, that bad one where the Patriots didn’t actually cheat. That one’s no fun ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/127 "2015-01-24T14:16:26Z")
“The refs are responsible since they didn’t stop us from cheating” is not an acceptable response. Instead, it is a gutless reaction from someone lacking any sort of integrity. Is there something in the rules that says footballs at 10 psi can be used in the game if not noticed before the game? Is there something in the rules that says that illegal footballs can be used if Aaron Rodgers says he likes an overinflated ball? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/128 "2015-01-24T14:35:35Z")
I’m also dubious about the straw-grasping claim that the balls weren’t gauge-tested before the game. Reports claim that officials were already prepared before the game to gauge-test at halftime. If that’s true, it makes no sense that they only did a Charmin test before the game. This and the impossible fumble data show that the Pats have been cheating for years. I don’t blame you for hoping against hope, but just maybe integrity will prevail. #BallSoSoftU ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/129 "2015-01-24T14:36:15Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > “The refs are responsible since they didn’t stop us from cheating” is not an acceptable response. Instead, it is a gutless reaction from someone lacking any sort of integrity. > > Is there something in the rules that says footballs at 10 psi can be used in the game if not noticed before the game? Is there something in the rules that says that illegal footballs can be used if Aaron Rodgers says he likes an overinflated ball? The rulebook says teams will blow up their own footballs, provide them for inspection, and referee will inspect them,make corrections to or discard balls that he decides are non conforming. Teams found to tamper with ball after inspection are subject to $25k fine. Submitting a football at 10.5 psi to a ref for inspection is not breaking a rule. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/130 "2015-01-24T15:28:17Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Is there something in the rules that says footballs at 10 psi can be used in the game if not noticed before the game? Yes. “The Referee shall be the sole judge as to whether all balls offered for play comply with these specifications.” [Rule](http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/5_2013_Ball.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/131 "2015-01-24T15:29:59Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Reports claim that officials were already prepared before the game to gauge-test at halftime. The same reports that falsely claimed the Colts defender intercepted the ball and thought it felt underinflated and turned it in? > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > hoping against hope > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > straw-grasping claim You can use these cliches to diminish solid counter arguments all you like, but it doesn’t diminish the strength of those arguments. I’m not ruling out the scenario where the Patriots cheated. That is certainly one possibility, and if true they should be penalized appropriately according to the guidelines. But the thing is, it has been shown beyond mere “straw grasping” that other, legal scenarios are just as plausible. An honestly, even in a scenario where a gauge was used, I would even believe that more likely than boldy taking the risk of removing air from the balls in full view, it would be more likely they did some other tactic, working around, but not actually breaking, the rules: for instance, if [they inflated the balls in a sauna,](http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/patriots/2015/01/23/deflategate-air-pressure-moist/22242609/) , that would be a brilliant way to get balls approved that would become softer after time. Completely legal with absolutely no risk, and the exact same result as letting air out after inspection. It would actually be more suprising if the Patriots took the risk of manually letting out air, than if they did it in a legal innovative way like this. The Patriots are, after all, known for finding creative ways to work around loopholes in poorly written rules. Some don’t like that about them. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/132 "2015-01-24T15:54:54Z")
Yes, it’s more likely that they inflated the balls in a sauna somewhere, than somebody with a helmet pin took some air out after the initial assessment. That’s logical. ---
**Author:** ![Aquadementia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aquadementia/32/555_2.png) [@Aquadementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquadementia)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/133 "2015-01-24T16:10:49Z")
If they guy who caught the interception didn’t start this ball rolling then who did? If you want a conspiracy theory maybe it has been long known that Brady likes his footballs on the light side and The Colts are just now bringing this up to throw them off their preparation for the big game. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/134 "2015-01-24T16:20:38Z")
> [@Aquadementia](#): > > If they guy who caught the interception didn’t start this ball rolling then who did? > > If you want a conspiracy theory maybe it has been long known that Brady likes his footballs on the light side and The Colts are just now bringing this up to throw them off their preparation for the big game. The guy who caught the interception gave it to the equipment guy, who believed it to be low. However, there are reports that the Colts had suspicions from their prior game during the season, and a report that the Ravens had suspicions from their game. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/135 "2015-01-24T16:21:00Z")
> [@robby](#): > > It’s amazing to me how many people can’t seem to get the physics correct, even those who should know better, like physics professors. > > This [article](http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/super-bowl-xlix/pigskin-physics-whats-big-deal-about-deflated-footballs-n290466), for example, quotes Mike Eads, physics professor at Northern Illinois University: > > Prof. Eads has at least accounted for absolute temperature in his calculation, but forgets that footballs are measured using gauge pressure (psig), which is the pressure above atmospheric pressure. To use the ideal gas law, not only do you have to convert temperatures measured in degrees Fahrenheit to absolute temperatures, but you have to convert gauge pressures to absolute pressures. > > To convert from psig (gauge pressure) to psia (absolute pressure), you need to add 14.7 psi to account for atmospheric pressure: 0 psig = 14.7 psia; and 12.5 psig = 27.2 psia. > > Redoing the erroneous calculation above indicates that the same football that measures 12.5 psig (27.2 psia) at 68 degrees Fahrenheit (20 deg C or 293 K), would actually drop to **10.6 psig** (25.3 psia) in 32 degree Fahrenheit (0 deg C or 273 K) weather. > > Since the whole controversy hinges on just a 2 psi difference, it would seem important to get this part right. This weather discussion just seems like a red herring. Everybody’s balls are checked at room temperature and suffer the same effects from temperature change. I highly doubt that when the NFL investigated the underinflated balls they measured them on the field, but rather all inside at some range of room temperature, where the balls will have returned to a few degrees from which they were checked the first time. Did the Pat’s footballs lose pressure on the field? Sure. Did the Colt’s footballs lose pressure on the field? Sure. Did the time on the field somehow affect the Pat’s footballs so that they permanently lost pressure but the Colt’s didn’t? No. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/136 "2015-01-24T16:59:31Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Yes, it’s more likely that they inflated the balls in a sauna somewhere, than somebody with a helmet pin took some air out after the initial assessment. That’s logical. I realize this is supposed to be sarcasm, but I totally agree with this post as written. Just would replace “somewhere” with “next door to the equipment room” It would actaully be much more logical than risk getting caught deflating manually. The fact is there are multiple totally plausible, logical explanations for footballs being up to 2 psi lower than standard. You will only acknowledge the single one that suits your narrative. Do I think the sauna scenario is the single most likely? No, but if it were me, and I had the choice between that and risking manually doing it, I’d certainly do the sauna way. It would be much smarter, legal, and with no risk. But maybe I’m smarter then everyone on the Patriots. But no I still believe the most likely scenario is: the Patriots inflated the balls on the low side, the refs approved them because an 11 or 11.5 psi ball is virtually indistinguishable from a 12.5 ball, and exact psi precision has never, before last week, been deemed to be something that was a particular concern anyway, the balls naturally lost between .5 - 1 psi (laws of physics) from the 30 degree temperature difference over a few couple hours, and tested at 10.5 at halftime If precise psi has ever been even a remote concern, if non-compliance in regard to precise psi has even remotely ever been something considered to be threatening the game’s integrity, then why on earth would teams be in charge of inflating their own footballs? THAT would be totally illogical. Scenario 2: the patriots footballs were approved, and they removed air out of them afterwards. Certainly plausible, and if proven, they deserve appropriate punishment consistent with how similar equipment tampering infractions have been punished in the past. Scenario 3: Aforementioned sauna trick, or similar legal technique to achieve a desired result with no risk. Brilliant, and totally the type of rule bending, but not breaking trick the Patriots are masters of. If I was intent on finding a way to get a slightly lower inflated ball into play, this would be way I’d choose, but maybe all the minds on the Patriots are dumber than me. I doubt it. All plausible, logical scenarios. Of them all, I find the outright cheating one least likely. Not “straw grasping” unlikely, but given the collective intelligence involved, the least logical mean to an end. Unlikely enough that it really needs to be proven before is should be simple assumed that that’s what must have happened. Again though, surely if this is what indeed happened, there are enough people out there with direct knowledge that someone will admit what they know. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/137 "2015-01-24T17:10:53Z")
I don’t blame you for being desperate to avoid the most plausible scenario. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful and distressing phenomenon. It’s okay. Someday in the future, you’ll be able to get past this trauma. ---
**Author:** ![notfrommensa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f14d63/32.png) [@notfrommensa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notfrommensa)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/138 "2015-01-24T17:26:38Z")
Keeping this question on a high level, why would the NFL even care what the inflation pressure is. If the football keeps a shape of regulation football, wouldn’t the NFL want its QB/receivers to perform on their best possible level. If Brady wants to throw a soft ball and Rodgers wants to throw a hard ball, why wouldn’t they let them? ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/139 "2015-01-24T17:30:43Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I don’t blame you for being desperate to avoid the most plausible scenario. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful and distressing phenomenon. It’s okay. Someday in the future, you’ll be able to get past this trauma. Dude, if you can provide specifics as to why my posts are incorrect then do it- dismissive rhetoric like this is absolutely useless. I’ve provided multiple scenarios, including yours, with thorough reasoning as to why they are equally plausible, and of the 3 happen to believe the outright cheating scenario is the less likely. I’ve certainly not avoided it as a plausible possibility. Even if i thought they were all equal, i’d still take the field over the 33%. Seriously, If you can back up why the other scenarios are not plausible I’d love to hear it. simply saying things like “you’re grasping at straws” and “you’re hoping against hope” isnt must of a debate, unless you can specify _why_, in a way that hold up against a counter argument, is not a very effective argument. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/140 "2015-01-24T17:33:49Z")
And if the NFL does care what the inflation pressure is, why the hell don’t they inflate the balls themselves? For that matter, why the hell do teams have their own balls in the first place? Everyone should be playing with the same balls. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515.md?page=8)