# NFL: Underinflated Balls? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 21, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515 "2015-01-21T20:17:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/141 "2015-01-24T17:33:57Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > But no I still believe the most likely scenario is: the Patriots inflated the balls on the low side, the refs approved them because an 11 or 11.5 psi ball is virtually indistinguishable from a 12.5 ball, and exact psi precision has never, before last week, been deemed to be something that was a particular concern anyway, the balls naturally lost between .5 - 1 psi (laws of physics) from the 30 degree temperature difference over a few couple hours, and tested at 10.5 at halftime. The problem with that theory is that the Colts balls should have dropped due to weather also, but they were measured and found to be ok still. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/142 "2015-01-24T17:51:04Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > And if the NFL does care what the inflation pressure is, why the hell don’t they inflate the balls themselves? > > For that matter, why the hell do teams have their own balls in the first place? Everyone should be playing with the same balls. Interestingly enough, it was Tom Brady’s lobbying that got them to change the rules so that each team provided their own balls. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/143 "2015-01-24T17:56:15Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > The problem with that theory is that the Colts balls should have dropped due to weather also, but they were measured and found to be ok still. Maybe Luck prefers inflated slightly higher? The fact that a ball inflated to 12.5 in a 70 degree room will lose at least .5 psi after a few hours in 40 degree weather is simply a mathematical certainty. In any case, it has no bearing on the scenario that slightly lower inflated footballs passed a refs inspection 1. actual statements by former ballboys that a typical refs inspection procedure doesn’t use a gauge 2. Statements by a prominent QB’s that they are able to get non-conforming balls past inspection 3. The fact that this statement is volunteered freely and casually, implying it’s not an issue that demands concern 4. Brady himself freely offering a few years ago the fact that he likes an underinflated ball- i love that people are trying to use this against him, when the fact he is confortable enough to talk about it strongly suggests that **no one freaking cares** 5. the fact that no one has ever been accused, suspected, caught, or fined, ever before, despite being given full access to groom their own footballs to their liking and do the ball inflation themselves- 6. Multiple statements from sources confirming that a 12.5 psi ball is virtually undistinguishable from a 10.5 psi ball All of these facts make it pretty damn plausible that when the refs inspect the footballs, a particular concern is not given to precise psi compliance- because _the don’t freaking care_ THAT is why I think the scenario that the balls are inflated to brady’s preference, probably around 11.5, submitted to the refs, approved, end of story, is the most likely of the possibilities. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/144 "2015-01-24T17:57:13Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > The problem with that theory is that the Colts balls should have dropped due to weather also, but they were measured and found to be ok still. We don’t have anywhere near enough information to really draw any conclusions. If the Colts balls were inflated to the 13-13.5 range before the game, then the expected pressure drop due to cold wouldn’t likely take them below 12.5. If all the balls were taken inside to be measured, and the measuring took several minutes, then the last balls to be measured would recovered some of the lost pressure. If the Colts but not the Patriots were keeping the balls warmer on the sidelines through the use of heaters, then the Pats’ balls would get softer but the Colts’ wouldn’t. I wouldn’t put it past the Pats to cheat in this way, but the information that’s been made public thus far doesn’t support a conclusion either way. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/145 "2015-01-24T18:01:34Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Interestingly enough, it was Tom Brady’s lobbying that got them to change the rules so that each team provided their own balls. It actually turns out that Brady lobbied for the change in 2006. The fumble data shows that it was 2007 that the Patriots became supernaturally able to stop fumbling. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/146 "2015-01-24T18:14:58Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > It actually turns out that Brady lobbied for the change in 2006. The fumble data shows that it was 2007 that the Patriots became supernaturally able to stop fumbling. That could actually make total sense- Brady, and Peyton Manning lobbied for those changes, and got them (uh… those cheaters?), which allowed complete control to be able to groom the footballs to QB’s preference- further cementing the idea that exact conforming ball specifications were not a priority to the league, instead the league preferred the balls to be conforming to the QB’s preferences- which allowed lower psi balls to easily be submitted and pass inspection (see previous posts- why would they give QB’s so much control but be a stickler on precise confoming psi levels, yet still allow them super sticky gloves for better grip and whatnot?). I don’t believe for a second that Brady was thinking about fumbles, they just wanted to be able to have the footballs be conditioned to the way they were most comfortable throwing them. If the league determines that 10.5 psi significantly decreases fumbles, then they should change their policy- which they surely will change after this circus anyway. But nothing about that suggests deflation after inspection, which seems to be the _only_ scenario you are willing to consider plausible despite extensive evidence to the contrary ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/147 "2015-01-24T18:21:50Z")
There’s evidence that the Patriots didn’t deflate the balls after inspection? What is that evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/148 "2015-01-24T18:23:05Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > There’s evidence that the Patriots didn’t deflate the balls after inspection? What is that evidence? There’s evidence they did? That’s how these accusation things usually work ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/149 "2015-01-24T18:29:32Z")
[QUOTE=Bootis] But nothing about that suggests deflation after inspection, which seems to be the _only_ scenario you are willing to consider plausible despite extensive evidence to the contrary [/QUOTE] You said that there’s “extensive evidence to the contrary.” Speculation about ball saunas is not evidence. So what is the extensive evidence to the contrary? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/150 "2015-01-24T18:33:24Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > You said that there’s “extensive evidence to the contrary.” Speculation about ball saunas is not evidence. > > So what is the extensive evidence to the contrary? He said there’s extensive evidence that scenarios other than your preferred interpretation are plausible. That doesn’t mean there’s evidence for them over others. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/151 "2015-01-24T18:39:04Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > You said that there’s “extensive evidence to the contrary.” Speculation about ball saunas is not evidence. > > So what is the extensive evidence to the contrary? If you read my post, its pretty clear that “evidence to the contrary” was referring to there being plenty of evidence that multiple, completely plausible scenarios exist to explain how a football could be measured at 10.5 psi at halftime. Breaking a rule is one plausible scenario. The others you refuse to acknowlege, and refuse to provide any explanation as to why they couldn’t be equally plausible. But that aside, are you sure you want to go the argument that lack of evidence that the Patriots _didn’t_ break a rule is somehow an argument that proves their guilt? I don’t think you want to, so I’m willing to strike that one from this “debate” if you want to take it back. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/152 "2015-01-24T18:56:41Z")
Spitballing plausible alternative scenarios - like ball saunas - is not evidence. Right now, there’s evidence that the Patriots’ footballs were legal 2 hours before the game, and were illegal at halftime. There’s (reportedly) evidence that teams believed the Patriots were using illegal balls prior to this game. There’s evidence that the Patriots fumble at a improbably low rate, and that they have done so since 2007. We can speculate “evidence” of magic deflation fairies all day long. I’m sure that feels better than facing the most parsimonious explanation. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/153 "2015-01-24T19:11:20Z")
[QUOTE=BrotherCadfael] As much as I wish I could claim credit, I stole that one. [/QUOTE] > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Yeah, [from me](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18066490&postcount=138). Actually, I hadn’t seen that thread; I found it elsewhere on the net. It’s a good enough line to get widespread exposure. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/154 "2015-01-24T19:41:12Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Spitballing plausible alternative scenarios - like ball saunas - is not evidence. > > Right now, there’s evidence that the Patriots’ footballs were legal 2 hours before the game, and were illegal at halftime. > > There’s (reportedly) evidence that teams believed the Patriots were using illegal balls prior to this game. > > There’s evidence that the Patriots fumble at a improbably low rate, and that they have done so since 2007. > > We can speculate “evidence” of magic deflation fairies all day long. I’m sure that feels better than facing the most parsimonious explanation. Yes you keep saying these things, but you really need to offer an explanation as to _why_ the other scenarios are comparable to “magic fairies”. Inventing a dismissive sounding tag line like “ball saunas” doesn’t actually offer anything in the way of a debate. Saying something isn’t plausible because it sounds silly doesn’t offer anything in the way of a debate. For instance, with “ball saunas”- for this scenario, it would require a 1. A desire to get a lower psi ball past the refs and into the game with zero risk or ramifications 2. someone, anyone to know that if you inflate a ball in a sauna, it will lose a few pounds of psi over time when taken out into cold weather. 3. sauna somewhat near the equipment room So you can say ‘oh that sounds far fetched, its like magic fairies’ but in reality its a clever, simple means to an end, and _not_ really very far fetched. Can you offer a counter argument exclaiming with actual reasoning, beyond dismissive handwaving, why this is not a plausible scenario? Like I said, if I was a coach, and I wanted a risk free, surefire way to get a 10.5 ball into the game, I’d sure as hell do this over deflating by hand out in the open. And I’m pretty sure I’m not smarter that the collective Patriots staff. But, hey, the phrase “ball sauna” sure sounds ridiculous, so, haha, no way they thought of that. But it’s equally likely such trickery wouldn’t even be required, due to the lax attitude the league has had on maintaining strict-to-the-rule ball compliance, and it’s likely quite easy to get an 11psi approved footballs into the game, from the myriad reasons backing this up, demonstrated repeatedly, in great detail in this thread. So I’d really like to hear your thoughts on why THIS scenario isn’t very plausible. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/155 "2015-01-24T20:48:43Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Apparently, someone is writing an opera about the DeflateGate “scandal”. > > The theme will be that a rodent nibbled on the balls, causing them to lose pressure. > > The opera will be called “DeFlatermaus” [The Deflator Mouse?](http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t464/monkapotamus/the_culprit_zps093d3ec9.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Dickerman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@Dickerman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dickerman)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/156 "2015-01-24T21:29:33Z")
For those who are interested in the procedure for testing and inflating the footballs, check out the following video for some idea: [http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/22/deflategate-video-how-nfl-officials-check-game-ball-pressure/](http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/22/deflategate-video-how-nfl-officials-check-game-ball-pressure/) I do not know if this procedure was used for the game in question, but it’s not unreasonable to think that it was. It shows that it’s the refs who are responsible for measuring the pressure with a gauge and setting the pressure within the allowed range. It looks like it’s done at room temperature, but it’s not clear what the actual temperature is of the air within the balls at the time. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/157 "2015-01-24T23:27:16Z")
As a follow-up to my earlier [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18077247&postcount=110), I actually emailed the writer of this [article](http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/super-bowl-xlix/pigskin-physics-whats-big-deal-about-deflated-footballs-n290466), and cc’d the physics professor from Northern Illinois University who was quoted in the article (Dr. Michael Eads). Earlier today, Dr. Eads replied back to me, and cc’d the writer of the article (Keith Wagstaff). In short, Dr. Eads concurred completely with my correction (his exact words were “Exactly correct!”), acknowledged that he did not account for the fact that gauge pressure was being measured, and agreed that if a football were inflated to the minimum allowed value of 12.5 psig at temperature of 68 degrees Fahrenheit, then brought outside to a temperature of 32 degrees Fahrenheit, the pressure would drop to 10.6 psig ( **not** 11.6 psi at indicated in the article). He adds that it is interesting that “this drop is pretty much spot on with the 2 psi drop being mentioned in reports.” He then went on to add that this “begs the question of why this is the first time this has been noticed in the history of the NFL. There has certainly been games played in cold weather before. It would be interesting to know if ball pressure has ever been (re-)measured after/during the game before like it was in this case.” I wonder if that is because this is the first time that anyone bothered to look. In addition, I wonder if Mr. Wagstaff (or the editors at [NBCNews.com](http://NBCNews.com)) will correct his article. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/158 "2015-01-24T23:38:31Z")
> [@robby](#): > > As a follow-up to my earlier [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18077247&postcount=110), I actually emailed the writer of this [article](http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/super-bowl-xlix/pigskin-physics-whats-big-deal-about-deflated-footballs-n290466), and cc’d the physics professor from Northern Illinois University who was quoted in the article (Dr. Michael Eads). Earlier today, Dr. Eads replied back to me, and cc’d the writer of the article (Keith Wagstaff). > > In short, Dr. Eads concurred completely with my correction (his exact words were “Exactly correct!”), acknowledged that he did not account for the fact that gauge pressure was being measured, and agreed that if a football were inflated to the minimum allowed value of 12.5 psig at temperature of 68 degrees Fahrenheit, then brought outside to a temperature of 32 degrees Fahrenheit, the pressure would drop to 10.6 psig ( **not** 11.6 psi at indicated in the article). > > He adds that it is interesting that “this drop is pretty much spot on with the 2 psi drop being mentioned in reports.” What is this sciencey jibber jabber your blabbering on about? it sounds a lot like [QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] “evidence” of magic deflation fairies. [/QUOTE] to me. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/159 "2015-01-25T00:31:19Z")
Ha! Agreed. **Hentor** ’s rhetoric is laughable. Seems pretty obvious he has an axe to grind. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515/160 "2015-01-25T01:08:13Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Spitballing plausible alternative scenarios - like ball saunas - is not evidence. 😃 But the following \*is \*evidence? 😃 > [@](#): > > There’s (reportedly) evidence that teams believed the Patriots were using illegal balls prior to this game. 😃 > [@](#): > > There’s evidence that the Patriots fumble at a improbably low rate, and that they have done so since 2007. Maybe there’s a, what do you call it, more parsimonious explanation for that? Something involving talent and coaching, maybe? > [@](#): > > We can speculate “evidence” of magic deflation fairies all day long. Yes, you certainly are. > [@](#): > > I’m sure that feels better than facing the most parsimonious explanation. Which is that haters gonna hate. Jealousy is \*such \*an ugly thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-underinflated-balls/710515.md?page=9)