# NFL Week 10
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529
**Category:** The Game Room
**Created:** [November 10, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529 "2011-11-10T19:52:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529/101 "2011-11-14T00:17:01Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#):
>
> I know the score, it just sounds like a fun game to watch.
That’s the fun part of Red Zone - I get to see the fisticuffs and not the boring parts of the game 😃
---
### Author:  [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529/102 "2011-11-14T00:24:43Z")
The whole Lions team turns me off.
---
### Author:  [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529/103 "2011-11-14T00:35:31Z")
How do you let the inconsistent Joe Flacco throw 52 times and only let Ray Rice get 5 carries? The Ravens sure messed up losing to the Seahawks.
---
### Author:  [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2011, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529/104 "2011-11-14T00:45:25Z")
Joe Buck was painful to listen to.
Some people see the 49ers and know they’re real, some people just can’t believe.
People, the 49ers are really, really good. They can beat anyone, including the Packers. Best defense in the league.
I’m loving it. 😃
---
### Author:  [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529/105 "2011-11-14T00:57:30Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#):
>
> Well Giants just lost, they could not convert 3 straight 4th downs. ☹
They’re relying on too many 4th quarter heroics. Everyone knew SanFran would be a tough game, but sooner or later (in this case sooner) the Giants weren’t going to convert one of those late game wins.
---
### Author:  [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2011, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529/106 "2011-11-14T01:02:57Z")
> [@mcgato](#):
>
> Tebow and Denver complete 2 passes and somehow still win. I’m figuring that hasn’t happened in like 50 years, so I check the pro-football-reference, and the last time it happened is…
> [Two years ago when Cleveland beat Buffalo 6-3.](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200910110buf.htm) The funny thing is people probably paid good money for that game.
That puts KC, Denver, and my Chargers in a 3-way tie for second, only 1 game behind the Raiders. Whoop! 😉
---
### Author:  [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529/107 "2011-11-14T01:10:23Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#):
>
> Whee two offensive facemask penalties in two weeks. You don’t see that every century.
Does Stafford’s count even thought it wasn’t called?
---
### Author:  [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2011, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529/108 "2011-11-14T03:17:29Z")
Despite losing, I was pretty damn impressed with Eli today, he placed a ot of passes in great spots, the TD to Hicks, the TD to Manningham.
---
### Author:  [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529/109 "2011-11-14T14:53:07Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#):
>
> They’re relying on too many 4th quarter heroics. Everyone knew SanFran would be a tough game, but sooner or later (in this case sooner) the Giants weren’t going to convert one of those late game wins.
Shame the ref who watched [Willis tackle Ballard right off the line](https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/383595_10100159820211087_27616420_44004808_1471340919_n.jpg) didn’t think that was worthy of a flag. Ah well…the Giants certainly had their chances that they let slip, so they shouldn’t have even been in a position to let a blown non-call dictate the outcome.
---
### Author:  [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529/110 "2011-11-14T15:19:40Z")
> [@Hal\_Briston](#):
>
> Shame the ref who watched [Willis tackle Ballard right off the line](https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/383595_10100159820211087_27616420_44004808_1471340919_n.jpg) didn’t think that was worthy of a flag. Ah well…the Giants certainly had their chances that they let slip, so they shouldn’t have even been in a position to let a blown non-call dictate the outcome.
Yes, but if you look closely, you’ll see that Jerome Harrison was also being held on that play, so it all evens out.
---
### Author:  [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529/111 "2011-11-14T15:24:06Z")
> [@Hal\_Briston](#):
>
> Shame the ref who watched [Willis tackle Ballard right off the line](https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/383595_10100159820211087_27616420_44004808_1471340919_n.jpg) didn’t think that was worthy of a flag…
Uh… that’s legal inside of five yards. Stop whining.
---
### Author:  [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529/112 "2011-11-14T16:33:33Z")
> [@garygnu](#):
>
> Uh… that’s legal inside of five yards.
Here’s what I found [at this site](http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/useofhands).
The relevant part, I think, would be this:
\*"A defensive player may not tackle or hold an opponent other than a runner. Otherwise, he may use his hands, arms, or body only:
(a) To defend or protect himself against an obstructing opponent.
Exception: An eligible receiver is considered to be an obstructing opponent ONLY to a point five yards beyond the line of scrimmage unless the player who receives the snap clearly demonstrates no further intention to pass the ball. Within this five-yard zone, a defensive player may chuck an eligible player in front of him. A defensive player is allowed to maintain continuous and unbroken contact within the five-yard zone until a point when the receiver is even with the defender. The defensive player cannot use his hands or arms to push from behind, hang onto, or encircle an eligible receiver in a manner that restricts movement as the play develops. Beyond this five-yard limitation, a defender may use his hands or arms ONLY to defend or protect himself against impending contact caused by a receiver. In such reaction, the defender may not contact a receiver who attempts to take a path to evade him.
(b) To push or pull opponent out of the way on line of scrimmage.
(c) In actual attempt to get at or tackle runner.
(d) To push or pull opponent out of the way in a legal attempt to recover a loose ball.
(e) During a legal block on an opponent who is not an eligible pass receiver.
(f) When legally blocking an eligible pass receiver above the waist.
Exception: Eligible receivers lined up within two yards of the tackle, whether on or immediately behind the line, may be blocked below the waist at or behind the line of scrimmage. NO eligible receiver may be blocked below the waist after he goes beyond the line."\*
The way I read it, you can’t tackle a guy, even if it is within 5 yards from the line of scrimmage. There is the exception for “eligible receivers lined up within 2 yards of the tackle”, but only if they are the line of scrimmage or behind it. The magic blue line on the picture makes it appear it was at, maybe slightly beyond, the line of scrimmage, but I don’t know where Ballard was lined up. I’m not sure what to make of it.
I’m not sure I’d have called it, but I haven’t seen the entire play. But I don’t think that picture is enough to bitch about.
---
### Author:  [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529/113 "2011-11-14T20:28:06Z")
No chatter at all about Sunday Night’s Pats vs. Jets game? I was quite pleasantly surprised at the beatdown the Pats handed to the Jets, though I’m certainly not kidding myself that this means the Patriots are suddenly really good. Nevertheless, nothing can stop me from enjoying wiping the smirk off of that bastard Ryan’s face in his house. Season sweep, you smug fucker.
The Pats remaining schedule is quite soft, so barring a catastrophe I think we’re pretty easily into the playoffs. That’s the good news. The bad news is the offense is not nearly good enough to carry our stinker of a patchwork defense far into the post-season. Unless they start to magically gel, I would be surprised to see the Pats win a single post-season game this year.
But that’s the future. For now, I will revel in this very satisfying win. 😃
---
### Author:  [@Labtrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labtrash)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529/114 "2011-11-14T20:41:51Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#):
>
> No chatter at all about Sunday Night’s Pats vs. Jets game? I was quite pleasantly surprised at the beatdown the Pats handed to the Jets, though I’m certainly not kidding myself that this means the Patriots are suddenly really good. Nevertheless, nothing can stop me from enjoying wiping the smirk off of that bastard Ryan’s face in his house. Season sweep, you smug fucker.
>
> The Pats remaining schedule is quite soft, so barring a catastrophe I think we’re pretty easily into the playoffs. That’s the good news. The bad news is the offense is not nearly good enough to carry our stinker of a patchwork defense far into the post-season. Unless they start to magically gel, I would be surprised to see the Pats win a single post-season game this year.
>
> But that’s the future. For now, I will revel in this very satisfying win. 😃
It was also quite pleasant to watch Ochostinko finally catch a freaking pass for once (or twice, wasnt it?).
---
### Author:  [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529/115 "2011-11-14T20:46:20Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#):
>
> The bad news is the offense is not nearly good enough to carry our stinker of a patchwork defense far into the post-season.
I noticed, late in the game, when the Jets were running formations with multiple WRs, the Patriots had a “defensive back” with a strange jersey number in the game. A bit later, I realized that they were using Julian Edelman as an extra DB; I’m assuming it was due to injuries. (I was reminded of the Packers using James Lofton as a safety in 1980 or so, when they were low on DBs, and lost an additional player or two in a game against the 49ers.)
---
### Author:  [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529/116 "2011-11-14T20:58:34Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#):
>
> NFL teams punt far too often, as several simulations have made clear. But apparently they fear the Monday Morning Quarterbacks enough to rarely go for it in their own territory. Doesn’t mean this particular decision was the right one tho.
On the ESPN2 show, _Numbers Never Lie_, they confirmed is _was_ the right decision. They said that teams in that situation win 50% of the time when they go for it and win 41% of the time when they punt. That’s a huge differential. Of course Eric Mangini and Michael Smith, two of the show’s hosts, remained obstinate in the face of science.
---
### Author:  [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529/117 "2011-11-14T21:01:47Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#):
>
> I noticed, late in the game, when the Jets were running formations with multiple WRs, the Patriots had a “defensive back” with a strange jersey number in the game. A bit later, I realized that they were using Julian Edelman as an extra DB; I’m assuming it was due to injuries. (I was reminded of the Packers using James Lofton as a safety in 1980 or so, when they were low on DBs, and lost an additional player or two in a game against the 49ers.)
I think right minded folks, aka not-Packers fans, would be reminded of the Patriots using Troy Brown as a DB in 2004.
I noticed what seemed to be a disproportionately high number of season ending injuries being reported today. Chris Williams for the Bears, Knowshon Moreno for the Broncos, maybe Matt Cassel for the Chiefs, Eric Wood for the Bills, Rashean Mathis and Eben Britton for the Jags and that’s just what’s made headlines this morning.
---
### Author:  [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529/118 "2011-11-14T21:07:25Z")
> [@Omniscient](#):
>
> I think right minded folks, aka not-Packers fans, would be reminded of the Patriots using Troy Brown as a DB in 2004.
Good point (and a more relevant example, not to mention the fact that Brown played DB quite a lot that year).
I was running some errands yesterday, and listening to Sirius satellite radio in my new car, using it to skip around between game broadcasts. Sirius was carrying the Chiefs network feed of the Chiefs / Broncos game; their announcers were (understandably) pretty down on how their team was playing.
They also noted that the Chiefs face a pretty hellacious next five games: they play the Patriots next Monday night…after that, they play all four teams from last season’s conference championship games (Packers, Bears, Steelers, Jets) in four consecutive weeks. They suggested that it’s the first time a team has ever faced this particular scheduling quirk (I have no idea if that’s true, but it does sound like a rare thing).
---
### Author:  [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529/119 "2011-11-14T21:08:01Z")
> [@Mince](#):
>
> On the ESPN2 show, _Numbers Never Lie_, they confirmed is _was_ the right decision. They said that teams in that situation win 50% of the time when they go for it and win 41% of the time when they punt. That’s a huge differential. Of course Eric Mangini and Michael Smith, two of the show’s hosts, remained obstinate in the face of science.
There are so many different ways to look at the stats, and which ones you apply to which situation, that it’s pretty useless. Do you use the 50% that Atlanta had on 4th down so far this year? The Saints 80%? Do you use the 66% that all teams have this year? Do you use the same stats for the first quarter, or overtime? Do you look at the prior games between these two teams, or what happened earlier in this very game, where the Saints had to punt earlier in that very overtime? Do you consider the Saints’ likelihood of moving the ball closer to the end zone before kicking the field goal is higher than other teams, thereby decreasing the win percentage even if don’t make it? I’ve seen at least 3 different statisical analysis using different numbers and different situations.
Those statistics are so easily manipulated that I found them completely useless. And while I agree that coaches are all to often reluctant to go for it on 4th down, I still think Mike Smith made the wrong call.
---
### Author:  [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529/120 "2011-11-14T21:22:46Z")
> [@Hamlet](#):
>
> There are so many different ways to look at the stats, and which ones you apply to which situation, that it’s pretty useless. Do you use the 50% that Atlanta had on 4th down so far this year? The Saints 80%? Do you use the 66% that all teams have this year? Do you use the same stats for the first quarter, or overtime? Do you look at the prior games between these two teams, or what happened earlier in this very game, where the Saints had to punt earlier in that very overtime? Do you consider the Saints’ likelihood of moving the ball closer to the end zone before kicking the field goal is higher than other teams, thereby decreasing the win percentage even if don’t make it? I’ve seen at least 3 different statisical analysis using different numbers and different situations.
>
> Those statistics are so easily manipulated that I found them completely useless. And while I agree that coaches are all to often reluctant to go for it on 4th down, I still think Mike Smith made the wrong call.
This is exactly right. While I certainly appreciate the desire and use of history and probability to come up with what is generally the right answer, in a specific case with specific teams the odds are actually quite different for specific teams and players in specific circumstances. I am not saying he made the wrong decision, but it is not necessarily true he made the right decision based on league trends and tendencies.
BTW, did anyone else notice the NFC West went 4-0.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529.md?page=5)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-10/602529.md?page=7)