# NFL Week 11 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 18, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423 "2012-11-18T17:23:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423/81 "2012-11-20T14:51:02Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > James Harrison head hunts. He deliberately hits helmet to helmet. What Ward did would’ve been considered a textbook hit 10, maybe even 5 years ago, but the NFL has become a bunch of pussies. There was nothing dirty at all about Ward’s hit. Oh, shut up. He aimed for the head. Period, end of story. You can’t aim for the head. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423/82 "2012-11-20T15:26:03Z")
Steelers safety Ryan Clark infiltrates the Ravens locker room and an [Ed Reed interview](http://www.baltimoresun.com/videogallery/73387895/Sports/VIDEO-Ravens-Ed-Reed-on-Steelers-Ryan-Clark) after the Sunday night game - he appears at 0:20, and Reed’s reaction is great. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423/83 "2012-11-20T15:53:33Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > That was a good old fashioned ass whuppin’ right there. That Aldon Smith scares the hell out of me and Kaepernick looked like the real deal. Meanwhile the Bears find that not every team is the Titans and lay a huge egg in primetime. A fun game to watch. The Niners looked awesome last night. Sure, Kaepernick had an incredible game, and they’re already talking QB controversy here in the Bay Area, but let’s not underestimate experience. Smith has it, Kaepernick doesn’t - yet. With Harbaugh running the team, he’ll bring Kaepernick along, he’ll manage his development well. If Kaepernick stays healthy, I expect great things from him in the coming years. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423/84 "2012-11-20T16:01:28Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > Oh, shut up. He aimed for the head. Period, end of story. You can’t aim for the head. [Here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj_DfwmQG_k) It looks like it may be helmet to helmet in real time, but if you pause it, it clearly isn’t. TJ Ward’s shoulder first make’s contact with Ogletree’s chest/shoulder, and the recoil of the impact forces Ogletree’s head to snap forward. Ward’s helmet does hit Ogletree’s shoulder, but it isn’t the first point of contact and it’s just the result of momentum. TJ Ward has never been a dirty player, and there’s no evidence here that he suddenly started. If you can’t lead with your shoulder into a receiver’s chest/shoulder, what can you do? Back up a bit, wait for him to catch it, and then wrap him up? You’re not only saying that there was head to head contact - which there wasn’t - but that he deliberately lead for the head. You shut up. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423/85 "2012-11-20T16:26:57Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > [Here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj_DfwmQG_k) > > It looks like it may be helmet to helmet in real time, but if you pause it, it clearly isn’t. TJ Ward’s shoulder first make’s contact with Ogletree’s chest/shoulder, and the recoil of the impact forces Ogletree’s head to snap forward. Ward’s helmet does hit Ogletree’s shoulder, but it isn’t the first point of contact and it’s just the result of momentum. I watched it a few times, pausing it as often as I could, and I think you’re wrong to conclude that anything about it is “clear”. Pausing at :26, it looks a lot like Ward’s helmet is directly in contact with Ogletree’s (although with the angle it’s hard to tell for sure). I think saying it’s “clearly” one way or the other from that video isn’t true. It’s not “clearly” anything. I think what made it a much easier call for me was that Ward did nothing, NOTHING, to crouch down, to get his head out of the way, or to do anything to avoid the helmet to helmet hit. If you’re going to make those kinds of hits, you’re going to have to deal with calls not going your way. > [@Senor Beef](#): > > TJ Ward has never been a dirty player, and there’s no evidence here that he suddenly started. If you can’t lead with your shoulder into a receiver’s chest/shoulder, what can you do? Back up a bit, wait for him to catch it, and then wrap him up? I think “leading with his shoulder” isn’t accurate either. His shoulder and helmet get there at the same time. Once again, it’s not the best angle to tell, but I have no problem with the flag on that kind of play. And wasn’t it Ward who got fined for helmet to helmet on Jordan Shipley that was widely called a “cheap shot”? And I don’t think either of you should shut up. It’s debateable. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423/86 "2012-11-20T16:38:51Z")
I’m not saying Ward is dirty, but he is a hard hitting safety and those kinds of players tend to get flagged more often. I distinctly remember Ward laying out Jordan Shipley a couple years ago. I wasn’t a “dirty” hit, but it was definitely illegal. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423/87 "2012-11-20T16:42:01Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I think what made it a much easier call for me was that Ward did nothing, NOTHING, to crouch down, to get his head out of the way, or to do anything to avoid the helmet to helmet hit. If you’re going to make those kinds of hits, you’re going to have to deal with calls not going your way. The problem - I’ve seen it a dozen times - is that if a DB tries to crouch down like that, sometimes the receiver also crouches to absorb the hit - and now the DB isn’t looking directly at his target, didn’t notice the receiver doing the same thing, and boom the tops of their heads slam together. It’s easier to make sure you hit something other than the helmet if you hit like Ward did. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423/88 "2012-11-20T16:47:28Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The problem - I’ve seen it a dozen times - is that if a DB tries to crouch down like that, sometimes the receiver also crouches to absorb the hit - and now the DB isn’t looking directly at his target, didn’t notice the receiver doing the same thing, and boom the tops of their heads slam together. It’s easier to make sure you hit something other than the helmet if you hit like Ward did. Does Ward have some kind of physical ailment whereby he cannot lift his head up while keeping his body low? Is his head so heavy that he can’t look forward while at the same time lowering his body? Ward knew where Ogletree was falling, and he did nothing to try and hit Ogletree in the midsection and instead pounded his head (or shoulder) into the head (or shoulder) of the defenseless receiver. If he wants to play with that style, he can learn to deal with penalties and fines, just like everyone else (including Ed Reed, who will lose over a game check worth over $400,000 for his continuing to play that kind of football). Ward apparently didn’t learn from the Jordan Shipley penalty and fine, maybe he’ll learn from this one. ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423/89 "2012-11-20T16:53:44Z")
> [@echo7tango](#): > > The Niners looked awesome last night. Sure, Kaepernick had an incredible game, and they’re already talking QB controversy here in the Bay Area, but let’s not underestimate experience. Smith has it, Kaepernick doesn’t - yet. With Harbaugh running the team, he’ll bring Kaepernick along, he’ll manage his development well. If Kaepernick stays healthy, I expect great things from him in the coming years. Nevada alum (therefore a Kaepernick fan) and Niners fan here, and I don’t see a controversy. Smith is doing well this season and there’s no reason he should lose the starter position. This isn’t Patriots in 2001 where Bledsoe went down for an extended period and Brady led a previously mediocre team to the playoffs. This is a good starter (yes, 2011-2012 Smith is good) out for a single game and his backup doing his job well. The Niners should feel good that they have a solid #2, but there’s no reason to change QB. The controversy is media manufactured. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423/90 "2012-11-20T17:50:03Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > It looks like it may be helmet to helmet in real time, but if you pause it, it clearly isn’t. It clearly is. You can debate whether it was illegal (I don’t think he intended to lead with the helmet or strike the receiver in the helmet), but it was definitely h-to-h. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423/91 "2012-11-20T17:53:13Z")
Ward’s helmet is closer to the camera than Ogletree’s, so you see Ogletree’s helmet get occluded by Ward, followed by reeling from the impact, so it looks like a collision, but if you freeze it, I don’t think they touched. That said, the refs don’t get the benefit from that sort of analysis in real time, so it’s not a horrible call, but I don’t like people saying ward is deliberately trying to head hunt, because he wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423/92 "2012-11-20T18:04:13Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > I’m not saying Ward is dirty, but he is a hard hitting safety and those kinds of players tend to get flagged more often. I distinctly remember Ward laying out Jordan Shipley a couple years ago. I wasn’t a “dirty” hit, but it was definitely illegal. Shipley was never the same afterwards, got hurt again the following season and is now out of the league. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423/93 "2012-11-20T19:00:05Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > … but I don’t like people saying ward is deliberately trying to head hunt, because he wasn’t. He launched himself at the receiver’s head. How do you not see that? It doesn’t matter if he led with his own helmet or not, launching at the head area in no longer acceptable. Ward may not have been looking to take off a head, but that play is not a legal way to break up a pass. I wouldn’t be surprised if one of the 49ers safeties gets flagged for that eventually, but it’s just too dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423/94 "2012-11-20T19:20:53Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > He launched himself at the receiver’s head. How do you not see that? It doesn’t matter if he led with his own helmet or not, launching at the head area in no longer acceptable. Ward may not have been looking to take off a head, but that play is not a legal way to break up a pass. I wouldn’t be surprised if one of the 49ers safeties gets flagged for that eventually, but it’s just too dangerous. I just watched this a dozen times and see nothing that resembles launching. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423/95 "2012-11-20T19:28:48Z")
Me either. He didn’t even leave his feet. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423/96 "2012-11-20T19:31:08Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Does Ward have some kind of physical ailment whereby he cannot lift his head up while keeping his body low? Is his head so heavy that he can’t look forward while at the same time lowering his body? > > Ward knew where Ogletree was falling, and he did nothing to try and hit Ogletree in the midsection and instead pounded his head (or shoulder) into the head (or shoulder) of the defenseless receiver. If he wants to play with that style, he can learn to deal with penalties and fines, just like everyone else (including Ed Reed, who will lose over a game check worth over $400,000 for his continuing to play that kind of football). Ward apparently didn’t learn from the Jordan Shipley penalty and fine, maybe he’ll learn from this one. Neither one of those hits were bad. Both players kept their heads up and lead with their shoulders into the receivers bodies. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423/97 "2012-11-20T20:01:46Z")
At 26 seconds, you can see that Ward’s head is fully turned towards the left, and his helmet is in full contact with Ogletree’s right shoulder pad. Bad call. ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423/98 "2012-11-20T20:35:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Me either. He didn’t even leave his feet. I don’t even think his heels get off the ground. ---
**Author:** ![2gigch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/2gigch1/32/3313_2.png) [@2gigch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2gigch1)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423/99 "2012-11-20T21:18:13Z")
Ed Reed’s suspension has been overturned, fine reduced to 50k. ---
**Author:** ![Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speak_to_me_Maddie)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423/100 "2012-11-21T02:35:25Z")
I didn’t see the game nor any replays or highlights, the first I’ve seen it is on the YouTube link above, and I care nothing for either team. It sure as hell looks like a helmet to helmet hit to me, even in the slowmo replay. I’d have called it if I were a ref. It’s as clear as day. It sucks for defenders when the receiver is started down to the turf and the defender has already started forward to tackle. I don’t know that in real time there is anything they can do. Sometimes heads will bump when people run into eachother at full speed. Sucks, and is possibly unfair in situations like this, but the rules are clear. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/641423.md?page=6)