# NFL Week 11 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 13, 2014, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516 "2014-11-13T08:43:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516/1 "2014-11-13T08:43:34Z")
Thursday BUF @ MIA -5.5 Sunday early MIN @ CHI -3 HOU @ CLE -3 SEA @ KC -1 ATL @ CAR -1.5 CIN @ NO -7.5 TB @ WAS -7 DEN -10 @ STL SF -4 @ NYG Sunday late OAK @ SD -10.5 PHI @ GB -6.5 DET @ ARI -2 SNF NE @ IND -3 MNF PIT -7 @ TEN ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516/2 "2014-11-14T17:38:14Z")
Something from the Thursday Night game bugged me. Kyle Orton was called at one point for intentional grounding. It was 3rd down (I believe) near his own goalline, he dropped back and the rush immediately got there up the middle. He flung it up the left sideline, about 20-25 yards past the line of scrimmage. Grounding was called, and since he was in the end zone it was a safety. (Ah, [here’s a clip](http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2267166-did-refs-make-correct-call-on-bills-qb-kyle-orton-safety-ruling); my memory was pretty good!) This was iffy for a couple of reasons. First, when the ball landed Sammy Watkins was about 7-9 yards away from it, as the crow flies. That seems plenty close enough to me for a deep ball. But they brought on Mike Carey to talk about it, and he said it was a good call, and also that the refs aren’t allowed to take route miscommunications into account when calling grounding. (Watkins had made his break away from where the ball ultimately landed; no doubt it was thrown much earlier than the play called for.) Well, I don’t know exactly what the rulebook says, but in practice the refs almost _always_ give leeway for a mixed up route. The QB throws a 12 yard button hook to the sideline but the WR runs a fly pattern deep, and by the time the ball lands there’s no receiver within 20 yards of the thing; that’s never called. Seems crazy to me that Orton was flagged, and even crazier that Carey would support the call. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516/3 "2014-11-14T17:47:59Z")
I don’t think it was within the spirit of intentional grounding, since he seemed to be throwing a targeted pass and his receiver made a different read, but I’m not sure what the exact letter of the rule is. I agree that it wouldn’t normally be called like that. It’s no surprise Mike Carey supported it, though. He basically always supports whatever the refs called, right? At least that’s my experience watching him. Arian Foster is out for this Sunday’s game at the Browns. I was worried about him. Now the Browns just have statue Mallett to deal with, and the game is going to be cold and brutal. I’m feeling good about this one. It would be amazing if the Browns were 7-3 when they get Gordon back next week. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516/4 "2014-11-14T18:42:57Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > …It’s no surprise Mike Carey supported it, though. He basically always supports whatever the refs called, right? At least that’s my experience watching him. > > Arian Foster is out for this Sunday’s game at the Browns. I was worried about him. Now the Browns just have statue Mallett to deal with, and the game is going to be cold and brutal. I’m feeling good about this one. It would be amazing if the Browns were 7-3 when they get Gordon back next week. Agreed, on the Carey observation. Everytime I’ve seen him, he supports the decision the refs came up with. True, that’s not behavior that’s restricted to him, but it would be refreshing to hear him say something like, “That’s a bad call.” Foster is supposedly out, but [Clowney’s coming back](http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/8375/jadeveon-clowney) this game, and [it doesn’t look good for Jordan Cameron seeing the field again this year](http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/301029/jordan-camerons-rest-of-year-status-unknown). Plus, even though Mallett may be a statue, he’s a statue Cleveland’s got very little film on. I’m still happily laying 3 (which is just insultingly low) and taking the Browns. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516/5 "2014-11-14T19:16:46Z")
Looks to me as though the refs saw a tackler closing on the QB, and the QB was falling backwards as he threw, and there was nowhere to go because a step or two back would have been an OB safety. I think it was mostly that falling backwards thing, made it look like a desperation throw (not really able to judge where the ball was going). ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516/6 "2014-11-14T20:16:03Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Well, I don’t know exactly what the rulebook says, but in practice the refs almost _always_ give leeway for a mixed up route. The QB throws a 12 yard button hook to the sideline but the WR runs a fly pattern deep, and by the time the ball lands there’s no receiver within 20 yards of the thing; that’s never called. Seems crazy to me that Orton was flagged, and even crazier that Carey would support the call. I’ve never once seen the refs give leeway for a mixed up route. Quite the opposite; they never give leeway. Your counter-example isn’t grounding because grounding only applies if you’re about to be sacked. If you take a 5-step drop, plant, and throw a deep out to your WR who mistakenly runs a deep in, it’s not intentional grounding because you weren’t trying to avoid a sack. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516/7 "2014-11-14T20:24:16Z")
Oh, hey, just remembered that the [official rulebook](http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/11_2013_ForwardPass_BackPass_Fumble.pdf) is online. I always forget they put the whole thing up a few years ago. Anyway, here’s the rule: (emphasis added) > [@](#): > > Section 2 Intentional Grounding > DEFINITION > Article 1 > Definition. > It is a foul for intentional grounding if a passer, **facing an imminent loss of yardage because of pressure from the defense** , throws a forward pass without a realistic chance of completion. A realistic chance of completion is defined as a pass that lands in the direction and the vicinity of an originally eligible receiver. > Item 1: Passer or Ball Outside Tackle Position. > Intentional grounding will not be called when a passer, who is outside, or has been outside, the tackle position throws a forward pass that lands at or beyond the line of scrimmage, even if no offensive player(s) have a realistic chance to catch the ball (including when the ball lands out of bounds over the sideline or endline). If the ball crosses the line of scrimmage (extended) beyond the sideline, there is no intentional grounding. If a loose ball leaves the area bordered by the tackles, this area no longer exists; if the ball is recovered, all intentional grounding rules apply as if the passer is outside this area. > Item 2: Physical Contact. > Intentional grounding should not be called if: > (a) the passer initiates his passing motion toward an eligible receiver and then is significantly affected by physical contact from a defensive player that causes the pass to land in an area that is not in the direction and vicinity of an eligible receiver; or > (b) the passer is out of the pocket, and his passing motion is significantly affected by physical contact from a defensive player that causes the ball to land short of the line of scrimmage. > Item 3: Stopping Clock. > A player under center is permitted to stop the game clock legally to save time if, immediately upon receiving the snap, he begins a continuous throwing motion and throws the ball directly into the ground. > Item 4: Delayed Spike. > A passer, after delaying his passing action for strategic purposes, is prohibited from throwing the ball to the ground in front of him, even though he is under no pressure from defensive rusher. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516/8 "2014-11-14T21:10:06Z")
Kevin Seifert covered it pretty well: [Inside Slant: There is a reason intentional grounding is rarely called - ESPN - NFL Nation- ESPN](http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/149629/inside-slant-theres-a-reason-intentional-grounding-is-rarely-called) ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516/9 "2014-11-14T23:32:00Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I’ve never once seen the refs give leeway for a mixed up route. Quite the opposite; they never give leeway. > > Your counter-example isn’t grounding because grounding only applies if you’re about to be sacked. If you take a 5-step drop, plant, and throw a deep out to your WR who mistakenly runs a deep in, it’s not intentional grounding because you weren’t trying to avoid a sack. I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on the route miscommunications. You’re right that being under pressure is necessary, but even in those cases I’ve seen passes that (for one reason or another) missed far worse than the one last night that no one seemed to think deserved a flag. The rule you quoted is, I suppose, open to some interpretation, but I think a plain reading of the text supports my view: “_A realistic chance of completion is defined as a pass that lands in the direction and the vicinity of an originally eligible receiver_.” The timing and accuracy of the pass was fucked up by the pressure, but it was clearly a pass for Watkins, and if Watkins had known the pass was coming out early and had been looking for it, he would have had a fair chance at catching it. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516/10 "2014-11-16T17:46:54Z")
It’s been a while, 8 years in fact, since mid-November games were something to be excited about for me instead of something that had to be endured. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516/11 "2014-11-16T18:20:42Z")
Holy shit Mallett’s arm. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516/12 "2014-11-16T18:23:39Z")
I love watching JJ Watt. Dude could be the best defensive player of this generation. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516/13 "2014-11-16T18:25:48Z")
Jay Cutler fumbles, but gets a break because nobody recovered it in time (which wasn’t true, because someone did). But instead of recognizing how lucky he is, he goes onto get an unsportsmanlike conduct on the next play for being a whiny douche. That penalty makes the field goal 15 yards harder, and the kicker misses it. I really hope this Bears season goes into complete meltdown mode. ---
**Author:** ![Boogly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Boogly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boogly)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516/14 "2014-11-16T18:46:06Z")
Does anyone know where I can watch the Lions game online? It isn’t going to be showing up here in Anchorage. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516/15 "2014-11-16T18:50:05Z")
Let’s go EAGLES!!! If we were playing at home, I’d say we’d have a much better chance, but Rodgers is just too damn good at Lambeau, rest of Packers too. Arriba Sanchez has to know not to throw near Clay Matthews, 'cause it will be picked. I’m only hoping our defense can pick or block some of Rodgers passes. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516/16 "2014-11-16T18:51:21Z")
Man I don’t like the rules they have to protect punters. You barely graze them after almost blocking their kicks and it’s 15 yards. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516/17 "2014-11-16T19:16:44Z")
I really wanted to see some Watt vs Joe Thomas, because I think Thomas might be the only the guy in the NFL who could shut him down, but Houston is wisely allowing him to abuse Mitchell Schwartz on the other side. Just as I say that, Thomas manhandled Watt on a play. Watt is truly great, but the announcers have literally said his name 200+ times in the broadcast already. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516/18 "2014-11-16T19:44:07Z")
Mike Carey just justified a totally obvious phantom helmet to helmet penalty by saying well, uh… the head… was above the shoulders… and… the defender’s head was above his shoulders too… so, you know, the refs sometimes think that’s head to head. Or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516/19 "2014-11-16T19:51:17Z")
They should change the name of the Panthers to the Tonic. They are good for what ails ya… ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516/20 "2014-11-16T20:10:53Z")
> [@Southern\_Yankee](#): > > They should change the name of the Panthers to the Tonic. They are good for what ails ya… Still gonna pay Cam? 🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-11/704516.md?page=2)