# NFL Week 12 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 20, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-12/705166 "2014-11-20T16:02:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-12/705166/41 "2014-11-24T19:07:04Z")
> [@PSXer](#): > > Nice to see Atlanta lose. Carolina still in the playoffs race. In 2010, the Seahawks became the first losing-season (7-9) division winner and playoff entrant, knocking off the SB Champ Saints in the first round (the game with Lynch’s epic “beast mode” run). So, can a NFC-S team make the playoffs with an even worse record this year? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-12/705166/42 "2014-11-24T19:29:57Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > So, can a NFC-S team make the playoffs with an even worse record this year? Good chance at it. I’m actually rooting for it. It’s be awesome to see a 5-11 or 6-10 team host a playoff game against a 12-4 wild card. I like the fact that division leaders get a playoff berth from winning the division, but the NFL should really consider changing the hosting rule if a division leading team doesn’t even get to 8-8. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-12/705166/43 "2014-11-24T19:55:38Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > In 2010, the Seahawks became the first losing-season (7-9) division winner and playoff entrant, knocking off the SB Champ Saints in the first round (the game with Lynch’s epic “beast mode” run). So, can a NFC-S team make the playoffs with an even worse record this year? The poetic outcome would be the Saints hosting the wild-card Seahawks, nicely matching that earlier game. Another possibility that I’d find amusing would be the Falcons winning the division at 6-10 by going 6-0 in the division and 0-10 outside. The thing about these games is that the bad division winner always seems to win. Those Seahawks won; Tebow beat the Steelers; the 8-8 Chargers beat Indy. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-12/705166/44 "2014-11-24T20:45:24Z")
What I really want to know is how the Bills plan to compensate their season ticket holder for this relocated game. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-12/705166/45 "2014-11-24T22:07:19Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > What I really want to know is how the Bills plan to compensate their season ticket holder for this relocated game. [http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/Refund-and-credit-policy-for-Bills-Jets-ticket-holders/d257155c-cc06-4e21-aa9f-761752b28450](http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/Refund-and-credit-policy-for-Bills-Jets-ticket-holders/d257155c-cc06-4e21-aa9f-761752b28450) > [@](#): > > Season ticket owners will have their accounts automatically credited for the Jets game to their 2015 Season Tickets. Accounts may reach out to their account representative to request a refund. Refund requests will begin being processed December 2, 2014. Pretty much standard operating procedure in cases like these. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-12/705166/46 "2014-11-24T22:21:36Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > What I really want to know is how the Bills plan to compensate their season ticket holder for this relocated game. There is this thing called Google… ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-12/705166/47 "2014-11-25T00:51:25Z")
> [@borschevsky](#): > > The poetic outcome would be the Saints hosting the wild-card Seahawks, nicely matching that earlier game. Another possibility that I’d find amusing would be the Falcons winning the division at 6-10 by going 6-0 in the division and 0-10 outside. > > The thing about these games is that the bad division winner always seems to win. Those Seahawks won; Tebow beat the Steelers; the 8-8 Chargers beat Indy. When Lynch ran over the entire NO team to score that touchdown, everyone stopped talking about how a 7-9 doesn’t deserve to be in the playoffs. I wonder what the talk will be if a 6-10 team gets in, gets the home game as a division winner and is promptly curbstomped in their playoff game. ---
**Author:** ![Jules\_Andre](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jules_andre/32/9334_2.png) [@Jules\_Andre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jules_Andre)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-12/705166/48 "2014-11-25T01:52:37Z")
The CB defending the opening Steve Smith TD just had the funniest play I’ve ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-12/705166/49 "2014-11-25T02:31:19Z")
I wonder if Michael Vick still thinks the Jets would have won more games with him as QB. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-12/705166/50 "2014-11-25T19:31:13Z")
AFC North all have 7 wins, and their record in out of division games is 24-7-1. You can say they’ve played the NFC South, and that’s true, but part of the reason the NFC South has such an awful record is that they’ve had to play the AFC North. John Clayton was on today talking about how the Browns suck and they’ve only got 7 wins because of the NFC South. But apparently the rest of the AFC North is great, because they’ve also got 7 wins because of the NFC South. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-12/705166/51 "2014-11-25T21:30:18Z")
Except, the Bengals _tied_ Carolina, so that could not count as a win “because of the NFC-S”. Near as I can tell, Cleveland is at the bottom because of 2 losses at home, vs. 1 for everyone else – though they ought to be above Baltimore, which has 3 losses within the division. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-12/705166/52 "2014-11-25T22:29:00Z")
Ties count as a half win and a half loss. Looking more closely, here’s how the AFC North has fared against the NFC South: Ravens 4-0 Browns 3-0 Bengals 2-0-1 Steelers 1-1 Removing those games, we have: Steelers 6-3 Bengals 5-3 Browns 4-4 Ravens 3-4 If anything, it’s the Ravens who have been propped up the most by the NFC South. Especially if you look at the point differential in those games compared to the rest. Just for completeness, the AFC North is 10-1-1 against the NFC South: AFC North is 28-15-1 combined, 18-14 without the NFC South matchups NFC South is 13-30-1 combined, 12-20 without the AFC North matchups In conclusion, the NFC South sucks hard, even ignoring the AFC North matchups. The Ravens are the team most propped up by the matchup, but in fairness to John Clayton, the Browns are #2 in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-12/705166/53 "2014-11-25T22:34:24Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Near as I can tell, Cleveland is at the bottom because of 2 losses at home, vs. 1 for everyone else – though they ought to be above Baltimore, which has 3 losses within the division. Pretty sure Cleveland is behind the Steelers and the Ravens because they played both of them once and lost both games. First tiebreaker is head to head, I believe. The Steelers and Ravens have played and split both their head to head games, so those two go to the second tiebreaker which is common games. Just based on their records vs the NFC South I have no trouble believing the Ravens have a better common game record. Division record is after common games because each team plays 14 common games but only 6 division games. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-12/705166/54 "2014-11-25T22:39:23Z")
[NFL.com](http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakingprocedures) says I’m wrong, that division record is the second tiebreaker and common games are third. I was positive that common games moved up to second during realignment in 2002. Is that a false memory, or did this change at some point? Note that they list the standings incorrectly if the second tiebreaker is division record. The Steelers (2-2) should be ahead of the Ravens (2-3). In any case, the Browns are correctly listed last because in games between those three teams, the Ravens and Steelers are 2-1 while the Browns are 0-2. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-12/705166/55 "2014-11-25T22:48:56Z")
Cleveland played Pittsburgh twice and crushed them the second time. Divisional tie breakers are head to head, division record, then common games. > **[NFL.com | Official Site of the National Football League](https://www.nfl.com/standings/tie-breaking-procedures)** > > The official source for NFL news, video highlights, fantasy football, game-day coverage, schedules, stats, scores and more. Edit: Started writing that before your last post. I think division record has always been the tiebreaker. Makes sense I think, gives more weight to those division games for the division race. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-12/705166/56 "2014-11-25T22:52:55Z")
Ah, yep, that one got past me. That explains the order then just based on games between the three of them: Ravens 2-1 Steelers 2-2 Browns 1-2 ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-12/705166/57 "2014-11-26T01:00:35Z")
The [ESPN playoff standings](http://espn.go.com/nfl/standings/_/type/playoffs/sort/conferenceRank/order/false) list the tiebreakers used, so they’re pretty useful. And I mentioned a while ago that the AFC playoffs are looking similiar to last year - right now it would be exactly the same, but with NE and DEN swapping spots. Of course that’s likely to change with so many teams at 7-4. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-12/705166/58 "2014-11-26T02:50:13Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > **AFC North all have 7 wins, and their record in out of division games is 24-7-1. You can say they’ve played the NFC South, and that’s true, but part of the reason the NFC South has such an awful record is that they’ve had to play the AFC North.** > > John Clayton was on today talking about how the Browns suck and they’ve only got 7 wins because of the NFC South. But apparently the rest of the AFC North is great, because they’ve also got 7 wins because of the NFC South. The bolded is actually pretty incredible, despite the NFC South sucking given the nature of parity in the NFL. All four teams have combined for 28 wins within the same division after 11 games. It’s kinda reminding me of the year (2012?) when the Bengals won the division and the Steelers and Ravens grabbed both wildcard spots. Say what you want about these four teams, they aren’t too flashy and all have their flaws, but they are tough. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-12/705166/59 "2014-11-26T03:41:44Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I was positive that common games moved up to second during realignment in 2002. Is that a false memory, or did this change at some point? Just remembered what I was thinking of. Before 2002, conference record was ahead of common games. With realignment, common games jumped ahead of conference. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-12/705166/60 "2014-11-26T23:20:19Z")
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