# NFL Week 15 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 18, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691 "2009-12-18T00:21:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691/61 "2009-12-21T01:20:09Z")
Based on other sports boards, coaches might make decisions like that so a bunch of meathead fans thinks it proves they have balls. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691/62 "2009-12-21T01:52:11Z")
Thank you, Tampa Bay Buccaneers for winning. We’re one step closer to winning the Suh Sweepstakes. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691/63 "2009-12-21T04:36:24Z")
> [@Hal\_Briston](#): > > Fricking snowstorm. No kidding. The Packer/Steeler game was going to be on here in Chicago…that is, until the snowstorm caused the Bear/Raven game to get pushed back. Ah, well, it meant I didn’t have to watch the Pack lose on the final play of the game. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691/64 "2009-12-21T14:25:37Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > I can’t wait for the statheads to explain how the onside kick was actually an excellent idea. [Already done](http://www.advancednflstats.com/2009/12/should-steelers-have-kicked-onside.html). I have to say I’m surprised at the 60% success rate for surprise onside kicks. I wouldn’t have thought it was nearly that high. Tomlin’s explanation after the game was interesting too. If people thought Belichik threw his defense under the bus, I don’t know what they’ll call this. Tomlin explicitly said that they did the onside so that if they lost it, it wouldn’t take as long for the Packers to score, and they’d have time to come back. And, to be fair, that’s exactly what happened. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691/65 "2009-12-21T14:57:48Z")
Curse you Bengals, for being _just good enough_ to keep my interest level up, but not good enough to beat the better teams in the NFL, not because other teams kick your asses, but because _you kick your own asses_ with stupid penalties, bad clock management, bad turnovers and various other miscues. You can beat anybody, but yet you choose to beat yourselves, which in this fan’s view, is the worst way to lose games. Please fix the highly correctible errors so we can make the playoffs and have a shot at winning at least one game while we are there. ---
**Author:** ![MadTheSwine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MadTheSwine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadTheSwine)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691/66 "2009-12-21T14:57:53Z")
> [@borschevsky](#): > > Tomlin’s explanation after the game was interesting too. If people thought Belichik threw his defense under the bus, I don’t know what they’ll call this. Tomlin explicitly said that they did the onside so that if they lost it, it wouldn’t take as long for the Packers to score, and they’d have time to come back. And, to be fair, that’s exactly what happened. I wish I had the ability to explain something exactly how it happened after I did it. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691/67 "2009-12-21T15:01:56Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Ah, well, it meant I didn’t have to watch the Pack lose on the final play of the game. 😛 I couldn’t watch any part of the game EXCEPT for the last couple drives, and boy was that exciting. And maddening. But, in the end, if we beat Seattle next week, we’ll be in good shape for the playoffs, so it wasn’t that horrible of a loss. We all knew that beyond Woodson and Collins, our secondary needed someone to step up, but Bush sucks (we knew that too) and Josh Bell is clearly not ready for NFL football (when you have 3 deep safeties in the end zone, you need to be in FRONT of your man), so we’re still weak there. And we knew we can’t really trust Mason Cosby anymore (and I liked him) or his holders. No real surprises. It’s tough losing 3 CB’s, including one Pro Bowler, for the season, and it’s tough having to start a street free agent in the dime package. But such are the vagaries of injuries in the NFL. I’m heartened by the fact that they sacked Ben 5 times (although it should have been 7 or 8), so against not so tough to bring down QB’s they should fare better. Still, a tough game to lose, especially in the midst of a playoff hunt. But it will all be forgotten with a win against the Seahawks next week and a hopefully resting their starters Cardinals in Week 17. GO PACK! ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691/68 "2009-12-21T15:09:57Z")
Actually, it was the worst possible kind of loss. Had the Packers won, they would have had a conceivable chance of winning the division, as the Vikings suddenly seem to be in implosion mode. A couple more games of Favre fighting with the head coach would result in 11-5, and a 12-4 Packers team would have blown right by. Now, the Packers cannot get by the Vikings, no matter how badly the Vikings implode. :mad: Losing this game shows why the Packers are going to win at most one playoff game. But then, we knew that going in to the game, so it’s no shock. Just disappointing. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691/69 "2009-12-21T15:23:46Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Actually, it was the worst possible kind of loss. Had the Packers won, they would have had a conceivable chance of winning the division, as the Vikings suddenly seem to be in implosion mode. A couple more games of Favre fighting with the head coach would result in 11-5, and a 12-4 Packers team would have blown right by. > > Now, the Packers cannot get by the Vikings, no matter how badly the Vikings implode. :mad: I seriously never thought the Pack would catch the Vikings. Even if Favre does his Favre thang, they still have the pathetic Bears on their schedule, they still have All Day, they still have a pretty good defense, and they still have their lawsuit to keep their cheaters playing this season. > [@DSYoungEsqx](#): > > Losing this game shows why the Packers are going to win at most one playoff game. But then, we knew that going in to the game, so it’s no shock. Just disappointing. ☹ The Packers have flaws, yes, but the O Line is better in pass protection (seeing as how McCarthy has once again given up the run), they have the potential defensive rookie of the year and potential defensive player of the year, and they lost on a last second play by the Super Bowl champs who really NEEDED to win at their own stadium. I think it’s a bit too early to say they’ll only win one playoff game (especially if they get the Vikings in the divisional round). Hell, it’s too early to even say they’ll win that one. One game at a time. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691/70 "2009-12-21T17:11:37Z")
Ah, **Hamlet** , you’re a Packers fan! No wonder I haven’t seen you in the Steelers thread today. Since I know you were watching, did you enjoy the first Packers touchdown? Specifically, did you enjoy the iso on James Harrison, and the arm around the neck holding that allowed Rodgers to avoid being sacked? That’s the exact holding on James Harrison that I’ve been talking about. And the exact failure to call it holding that I’ve been talking about. At least now I know for sure that you’ve seen it when you do come around again to talk shit. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691/71 "2009-12-21T17:23:02Z")
Clearly there’s a league-wide conspiracy against Harrison. I mean, the refs call those same types of holds against all the other elite pass rushers in the NFL, right? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691/72 "2009-12-21T17:37:31Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Clearly there’s a league-wide conspiracy against Harrison. I mean, the refs call those same types of holds against all the other elite pass rushers in the NFL, right? If they are not, I hope those elite pass rushers are making their case to the league as well. There should not be types of holds that are okay. Of course, I haven’t heard any announcers describing other elite pass rushers as the one getting held most often in the league, and I see the very play that Fox chose to return to in isolation occurring with regularity against Harrison. Do you deny that Harrison was held on that play, in the very manner I’ve been describing all season long? Do you deny that the holding allowed a touchdown pass? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691/73 "2009-12-21T18:05:17Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > If they are not, I hope those elite pass rushers are making their case to the league as well. There should not be types of holds that are okay. > > Of course, I haven’t heard any announcers describing other elite pass rushers as the one getting held most often in the league, and I see the very play that Fox chose to return to in isolation occurring with regularity against Harrison. > > Do you deny that Harrison was held on that play, in the very manner I’ve been describing all season long? Do you deny that the holding allowed a touchdown pass? I didn’t see the play in question. I was too busy watching/mourning the Bengals’ preventable loss to the Bolts. I’m just joking anyway. This Harrison holding thing seems to have a life of its own. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691/74 "2009-12-21T18:21:01Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Ah, **Hamlet** , you’re a Packers fan! No wonder I haven’t seen you in the Steelers thread today. Since I know you were watching, did you enjoy the first Packers touchdown? Specifically, did you enjoy the iso on James Harrison, and the arm around the neck holding that allowed Rodgers to avoid being sacked? If you actually read what I posted in this very thread, you’d see I missed all but the last two drives of the game. Nice reading comprehension. And I see you still haven’t gotten the point about the Harrison-Holding meme. Which is surprising to absolutely no one who reads your posts. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691/75 "2009-12-21T18:31:14Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > If you actually read what I posted in this very thread, you’d see I missed all but the last two drives of the game. Nice reading comprehension. Awww. And it was right there, pretty as a picture, with commentary by Aikman and Buck, too. Dammit. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691/76 "2009-12-21T19:22:29Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > Note to Chargers: I think upon beating the Bengals this week, the appropriate attitude would have been somber dutifulness. ☹ **Whoop! Go Chargers! 🙂** ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691/77 "2009-12-21T20:23:37Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > Note to Chargers: I think upon beating the Bengals this week, the appropriate attitude would have been somber dutifulness. …and gratefulness that the check to the refs cleared. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691/78 "2009-12-21T22:21:45Z")
Re: Harrison Holding meme: Holding happens on every play of every NFL game. The strict definition is never called, just as the strict definition of Law XII in soccer is never adhered to in professional games. It’s only certain egregious examples of holding that are usually flagged. If Harrison is being “held” on every play (or, to be charitable, regularly on certain types of plays), then the officials MUST be seeing it (they cannot always be blind to it, or missing it). If they are seeing it and not whistling it, then the logical conclusion is that it is not considered “holding” by the league, or at least by the league’s officials. This may be why the Steelers have reportedly discussed the issue with the league: to try and get the league to accept that the “holding” in question is truly penalizable. Are there any stats to show if the number of holding calls for teams playing the Steelers is up this year over the last few years? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691/79 "2009-12-22T00:02:41Z")
It sort of balances out, because the Steelers’ O-line gets away with way more holding than average IMO. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691/80 "2009-12-22T00:08:00Z")
One thing that’s kind of stupid is that penalties can’t be reviewed. They are often both bad calls and game-changing. There’s no reason the coaches shouldn’t be allowed to ask the refs to look again. Of course the non-calls can also be bad and game-changing. See Pearson, Drew; Off, Pushed; and Mary, Hail. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-15/521691.md?page=5)