# NFL Week 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 14, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689 "2012-09-14T13:05:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/61 "2012-09-17T13:43:37Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > How long is this ref bullshit going to go? From Peter King today: \*" One of the reasons there’s such a stalemate between the NFL and the regular officials is the pension. Many of you have asked what that means. According to attorney Mike Arnold, who represents the officials, the NFL contributed $5.3 million to the officials’ pension system in 2011, and planned to reduce that number to $2 million in 2012 under the current league bargaining proposal. Under those numbers, the NFL contributed $44,167 per man to the 120 officials’ pensions in 2011, and would contribute $16,667 per man in 2012. That’s a difference of $27,500 per man. "When we were hired,‘’ said referee Scott Green, a member of the officials’ negotiating team, "we were told, ‘Here’s what the compensation is, and here’s what the pension is.’ We don’t think it’s fair to have such a major give-back without being able to negotiate that at all.‘’ That’s the biggest under-the-radar reason we’re entering day 16 of no substantive talks between the officials and the league."\* ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/62 "2012-09-17T13:58:07Z")
It seems to me that revenues and salaries in the NFL are going up, up, up. So why is the league trying to reduce the ref’s pensions? I’m not saying they should raise it, but can’t they just leave it unchanged? The owners already got a big concession in the form of the rookie salary cap. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/63 "2012-09-17T15:26:06Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > From Peter King today: \*" > One of the reasons there’s such a stalemate between the NFL and the regular officials is the pension. Many of you have asked what that means. According to attorney Mike Arnold, who represents the officials, the NFL contributed $5.3 million to the officials’ pension system in 2011, and planned to reduce that number to $2 million in 2012 under the current league bargaining proposal. > > Under those numbers, the NFL contributed $44,167 per man to the 120 officials’ pensions in 2011, and would contribute $16,667 per man in 2012. That’s a difference of $27,500 per man. > > "When we were hired,‘’ said referee Scott Green, a member of the officials’ negotiating team, "we were told, ‘Here’s what the compensation is, and here’s what the pension is.’ We don’t think it’s fair to have such a major give-back without being able to negotiate that at all.‘’ > > That’s the biggest under-the-radar reason we’re entering day 16 of no substantive talks between the officials and the league."\* Fucking ridiculous, I mean seriously the league is causing the clusterfuck over $3 million annually? If that is it, then that is really shitty. ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/64 "2012-09-17T15:41:16Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Fucking ridiculous, I mean seriously the league is causing the clusterfuck over $3 million annually? If that is it, then that is really shitty. Referee pay isn’t even worth a line item in the public NFL budget, that’s how inconsequential this is. Sad. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/65 "2012-09-17T16:56:35Z")
I think it’s rich owners pushing back against the very idea of pensions. Weathy folks are sure principled when it comes to pricipal. In happier news, I love seeing my 49ers run roughshod over these “good” teams from the NFC North. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/66 "2012-09-17T17:18:08Z")
Not impressed by all the whining about the Buccaneers trying to force a fumble on the Giants’ kneel-down. If the Giants think you shouldn’t try to force a fumble on a kneel down because it never works, why do they bother trying to block extra point attempts? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/67 "2012-09-17T17:25:58Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > I think it’s rich owners pushing back against the very idea of pensions. > Weathy folks are sure principled when it comes to pricipal. To be fair, the NFL wants to move from fixed benefits pension packages to 401(k)'s, a move that is extremely widespread in the business community. Hell, Roger Goodell doesn’t have that. Still, I think the NFL has rejected a proposal where they would grandfather in the fixed benefits for the guys who are already vested, but do 401(K) for the new guys, so they clearly aren’t the good guys either. It’s a mess. > [@garygnu](#): > > In happier news, I love seeing my 49ers run roughshod over these “good” teams from the NFC North. Alex Smith has impressed me this year. I think good teams will adjust to their style of play and the production will decrease, but he has been playing very well. And that defense is scary good. It makes me appreciate just how incredibly horrible a coach Mike Singletary was too, so that’s good. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/68 "2012-09-17T17:29:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not impressed by all the whining about the Buccaneers trying to force a fumble on the Giants’ kneel-down. If the Giants think you shouldn’t try to force a fumble on a kneel down because it never works, why do they bother trying to block extra point attempts? How much time was left in that game when that happened? It seems to me that the Bucs weren’t obligated to just “accept their fate”…it wasn’t like they were down 21 points or anything…they were down by one score, and there was a chance, however remote, that they could have forced a turnover and managed to tie the game. I don’t get why Coughlin and the Giants don’t see that.\* \*I haven’t seen the play in question, just heard about it on Mike and Mike. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/69 "2012-09-17T17:30:00Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not impressed by all the whining about the Buccaneers trying to force a fumble on the Giants’ kneel-down. If the Giants think you shouldn’t try to force a fumble on a kneel down because it never works, why do they bother trying to block extra point attempts? Oh please. It was a dick move by a rookie coach who wants to make his reputation as a hard-nosed, play-till-the-end, type of guy to fire up his team. There’s a reason that you don’t see other teams being assholes about losing, and it isn’t because they’re not “playing to the end”. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/70 "2012-09-17T17:33:06Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > How much time was left in that game when that happened? 5 seconds. And it was first and 10, coming right after an interception by Josh Freeman to all but end the game. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/71 "2012-09-17T17:39:29Z")
Were they just trying to cause a fumble? I got the impression the took a pot shot or two at Eli. If they were truly just going for a fumble, then all it is is laughably silly. Speaking of pot shots, I hope and assume John Wendling will get fined for his forearm to Alex Smith’s face on a slidedown, but damn if it didn’t make for a dramatic image Sunday night. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/72 "2012-09-17T17:52:59Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Oh please. It was a dick move by a rookie coach who wants to make his reputation as a hard-nosed, play-till-the-end, type of guy to fire up his team. There’s a reason that you don’t see other teams being assholes about losing, and it isn’t because they’re not “playing to the end”. I lack your telepathic abilities, so I’m not going to ascribe motivations to Schiano. That’s not the point, though; it was a perfectly legal football play, and there was no reason for them not to try. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/73 "2012-09-17T17:58:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I lack your telepathic abilities, so I’m not going to ascribe motivations to Schiano. That’s not the point, though; it was a perfectly legal football play, and **there was no reason for them not to try.** Unless they ever want to try a kneel-down at the end of one of their own games without running the risk of getting Freeman hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/74 "2012-09-17T17:58:51Z")
The tackles dived over the top of the Giants’ interior line and Eli fell on his ass. He barely got hit at all. If NFL quarterbacks are now so tender that they can’t take hits like that, they should wear flags (and I’m in favor of most of the protecting-the-quarterback rules, for the record). ETA: if you can’t block a kneel-down play, you shouldn’t be running it. If Coughlin is so concerned about Eli’s health, let him send out the backup QB to take a knee. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/75 "2012-09-17T18:00:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I lack your telepathic abilities, so I’m not going to ascribe motivations to Schiano. Isn’t that Schiano’s entire schtick? The tough guy coach who motivates his players to play tough and fight for everything? Isn’t that exactly how he’s described himself and how he’s coached from the moment he arrived in Tampa Bay. Is this a surprise to you? > [@RNATB](#): > > That’s not the point, though; it was a perfectly legal football play, And a dick move. Like running up the score, kicking a field goal at the end of game when it makes no difference, talking bad about players to the media or the myriad of other things that aren’t illegal, but are dick moves if done. > [@RNATB](#): > > and there was no reason for them not to try. I think there is some value to not coaching your players to be assholes on the field, showing respect for another team, and not inviting other teams to be assholes back at your players. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/76 "2012-09-17T18:03:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The tackles dived over the top of the Giants’ interior line and Eli fell on his ass. He barely got hit at all. If NFL quarterbacks are now so tender that they can’t take hits like that, they should wear flags (and I’m in favor of most of the protecting-the-quarterback rules, for the record). It wasn’t just Eli Coughlin was concerned about. It’s also the O Line, who have gigantic men diving at their knees. > [@RNATB](#): > > ETA: if you can’t block a kneel-down play, you shouldn’t be running it. If Coughlin is so concerned about Eli’s health, let him send out the backup QB to take a knee. They did block it, there was no fumble, and it didn’t work. And, for as long as I remember, it has never, ever worked. There is a reason 99% of the teams don’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/77 "2012-09-17T18:03:14Z")
I fail to see how trying to recover the ball during a play in regulation is “disrespectful” or “dick”. Everyone else does it, therefore it’s The Right Thing To Do? Rubbish. Running up the score is unsportsmanlike because it’s inherently dickish. How is running a defensive play inherently dickish? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/78 "2012-09-17T18:07:34Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I fail to see how trying to recover the ball during a play in regulation is “disrespectful” or “dick”. Everyone else does it, therefore it’s The Right Thing To Do? Rubbish. Running up the score is unsportsmanlike because it’s inherently dickish. How is running a defensive play inherently dickish? Why do you suppose no other team does it? Is every other coach in the last 20 years so incredibly stupid that they never thought to try it? Is Schiano some kind of master-genius who turned the NFL on it’s ear with this massive innovation of the game of football? No other team does it because it’s dickish and invites retribution. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/79 "2012-09-17T18:08:24Z")
It was a bush league, bullshit play. It was perfectly legal, but more likely to injure somebody than to succeed. It’s no different from Hines Ward hitting a DB from the blindside 40 yards away from the ball just because he could. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/80 "2012-09-17T18:09:01Z")
The Bucs did nothing wrong, the problem was the Giants weren’t ready for it,their fault. There is nothing I hate more than unwritten rules, it is one of the things that makes baseball kinda stupid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689.md?page=5)