# NFL Week 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 14, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689 "2012-09-14T13:05:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/81 "2012-09-17T18:15:48Z")
This weekend made me aware for the first time that crackback blocks against defenseless players is now illegal. Apparently the zebs weren’t aware either in the Dallas/Seattle game as a particularly flagrant one against Sean Lee wasn’t called. It’ll be interesting to see if the league does anything about it despite the no call. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/82 "2012-09-17T18:17:46Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > The Bucs did nothing wrong, the problem was the Giants weren’t ready for it,their fault. They weren’t ready for it, and it still didn’t work. Their only chance in the entire coaching career of Greg Schiano to surprise someone by having his players be assholes in this way, and it still didn’t work. Great coaching! And I’m sure this will catch on. Every team will now realize “OMG this is a great idea! Why haven’t we been doing this all along? Genius! Pure genius!” > [@Gangster Octopus](#): > > There is nothing I hate more than unwritten rules, it is one of the things that makes baseball kinda stupid. “Don’t be a dick” is an “unwritten rule”? I just kind thought it was a smart, respectful thing to do. There will always be players (Cortland Finnegan and Bill Romanowski) who make a living violating it, and now there is a coach. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/83 "2012-09-17T18:35:02Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > They weren’t ready for it, and it still didn’t work. Their only chance in the entire coaching career of Greg Schiano to surprise someone by having his players be assholes in this way, and it still didn’t work. Great coaching! And I’m sure this will catch on. Every team will now realize “OMG this is a great idea! Why haven’t we been doing this all along? Genius! Pure genius!” > > “Don’t be a dick” is an “unwritten rule”? I just kind thought it was a smart, respectful thing to do. There will always be players (Cortland Finnegan and Bill Romanowski) who make a living violating it, and now there is a coach. They weren’t being dicks, they were trying to win the game. Next time the Giants and any other team should play it like any other down if the game isn’t over. It was a one score game. The Giants are just whining because they weren’t ready. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/84 "2012-09-17T18:47:03Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > They weren’t being dicks, they were trying to win the game. They were trying to win the game AND they were being dicks. They are not mutually exclusive. > [@Gangster Octopus](#): > > Next time the Giants and any other team should play it like any other down if the game isn’t over. It was a one score game. The Giants are just whining because they weren’t ready. And, once again, it still didn’t work. And, once again, even if the Giants were ready for it, it would still be a dick move. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/85 "2012-09-17T19:27:39Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Why do you suppose no other team does it? Is every other coach in the last 20 years so incredibly stupid that they never thought to try it? Is Schiano some kind of master-genius who turned the NFL on it’s ear with this massive innovation of the game of football? > > No other team does it because it’s dickish and invites retribution. NFL coaches _are_ pretty stupid. Witness their near-universal refusal to go for it on fourth down even when the numbers say they should. You still haven’t explained what’s “dickish” about it, which suggests that you can’t think of any cogent reason. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/86 "2012-09-17T19:36:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > NFL coaches _are_ pretty stupid. Witness their near-universal refusal to go for it on fourth down even when the numbers say they should. Maybe. But every single one of them? Hell, Bellicheck will go for it on 4th, as will some other coaches. But not a one of them has his team do what Schiano had the Bucs do. > [@RNATB](#): > > You still haven’t explained what’s “dickish” about it, which suggests that you can’t think of any cogent reason. I kinda thought the pointing out the diving at the knees of the offensive linemen, the mention of retribution for his players, the mention of the lack of respect for the winning team, and the fact it simply isn’t done in the NFL would give you a hint of why it is “dickish”. Maybe I need a highlighter. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/87 "2012-09-17T19:37:22Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > They weren’t being dicks, they were trying to win the game. Next time the Giants and any other team should play it like any other down if the game isn’t over. It was a one score game. The Giants are just whining because they weren’t ready. When the Giants took a knee at the end of the 1st half, did Schiano not want to win the game? That was strategically a much better opportunity to make a difference. NYG 8 yard line 8 seconds to play, the Giants just threw an interception for a touchdown, and had a terrible return on the kickoff. Perfect time to put a stake in their hearts. Instead, he took his one and only shot at the end of the game, less time on the clock, from the NYG 30 yard line. If you intend to play it “just like any other down” why wouldn’t you try at the end of the first half? They didn’t go for it at the end of the first half because it is intended to be a surprise play\*. Surprise plays are not just like any other down, they play upon the fact that the default, 99 times out of 100, there’s no contact on the play, and you do something unexpected. Surprise plays, where you count on the other team not realizing you’re running a full contact play, are always bush league bullshit. They usually happen on the high school level, where some “brilliant” coach draws up some little fiction to get the defense thinking there’s a dead ball, instead of a play brewing. The best part about this is that his teams are going to get hammered on every kneel down play they participate in, for a long time. \*I mean surprise play to describe a play where the opponent is surprised that there’s actually a play going on. In contrast to a trick play, where they simply don’t know where the ball went. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/88 "2012-09-17T19:38:42Z")
Well, with only five seconds left I’m not sure why they even tried it. Trying to disrupt a snap on a kneeldown is virtually impossible, but even if by a miracle they had caused and recovered a fumble, they would have had to run it in for a touchdown. If there had been more time on the clock I can see doing it as you may have time to run an offensive play after the fumble recovery. But not with only five seconds. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/89 "2012-09-17T19:44:12Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > There have been some absolutely terrible calls in the Jets-Steelers game. > [@Erdosain](#): > > Yeah, they called pass interference on the Steelers for tackling a receiver That one was excellent. I thought they were flagging Ike Taylor for a hit on a defenseless receiver (which would have been a bad call), but they said it was defensive pass interference, which made no sense at all because the receiver was not interfered with on his route and was not hit until well after the ball arrived. And just as a bonus, I thought they might’ve called the non-existent penalty on the wrong player. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/90 "2012-09-17T19:48:23Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Well, with only five seconds left I’m not sure why they even tried it. Trying to disrupt a snap on a kneeldown is virtually impossible, but even if by a miracle they had caused and recovered a fumble, they would have had to run it in for a touchdown. If there had been more time on the clock I can see doing it as you may have time to run an offensive play after the fumble recovery. But not with only five seconds. Why? The clock stops on a change of possession. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/91 "2012-09-17T19:50:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why? The clock stops on a change of possession. Ah, that’s right, but would a play like that, on the ultra slim chance it would have worked, not have consumed the 5 seconds that were left? ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/92 "2012-09-17T19:51:15Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > They did block it, there was no fumble, and it didn’t work. Well, it kind of did work, in that Eli got knocked back hard enough that a fumble was a plausible outcome. In fact, I would never have thought it was a good idea until I saw how well it worked. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/93 "2012-09-17T19:54:35Z")
The Giants are being whiny pussies about it, and it was a bush league, dick move. RNATB is a Bucs fan; of course all he can see is “my team is great!” It would normally offend me faierly significantly to hear a coach – especially the coach of my favorite team – say “You don’t do that in this league.” Not just about this controversy, but about anything. I have to grudgingly give Coughlin a bit of a pass on that pompous pronouncement only because he has 2 trophies in the past 5 seasons to lend it some credibility. Still, not a fan at all of that sentiment from a coach. As a fan, yeah, you don’t do that in this league. Ease off the kool-aid, RNATB. The thing that stuck out for me was Mike Greenberg repeatedly saying how the Bucs dominated the first half and how the Giants were terrible. All three picks were bad, yes, but at halftime that Giants had nearly double the Bucs’ plays, first downs, and yards. They were anything but being dominated. They were dominating the Bucs but pissed it away with Eli’s pick-itis, which still rears its head every now and again. The second half went the same way the first half would have if Eli hadn’t been throwing picks. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/94 "2012-09-17T20:14:08Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > Well, it kind of did work, in that Eli got knocked back hard enough that a fumble was a plausible outcome. Maybe I have a different definition of “work”. To me it indicates “success” and not how you apparently define it as “not success”. > [@Carmady](#): > > In fact, I would never have thought it was a good idea until I saw how well it worked. The goal was not to knock into Eli, it was to cause a fumble. Hence, it did not work. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/95 "2012-09-17T20:43:52Z")
Yeah, it [never works](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQz4BFbgARI&feature=player_embedded#!). BTW, it isn’t just a play to cause a fumble but to recover a fumble in case of a bad snap. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/96 "2012-09-17T21:10:52Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Yeah, it [never works](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQz4BFbgARI&feature=player_embedded#!). BTW, it isn’t just a play to cause a fumble but to recover a fumble in case of a bad snap. I completely missed the boat. Who knew that the NFL added Oklahoma State and Troy to the NFL? I’m a bit pissed that I hadn’t noticed those teams were added to the AFC Lower Midwest/Alabama division. I’m thinking Troy has a real shot at a wildcard this year if they can beat the Browns and Bengals. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/97 "2012-09-17T22:02:53Z")
You can’t use the fact that it hasn’t worked as a reason not to do it. It’s never worked in the NFL because, as you point out, nobody does it. You might as well say my grizzly bear defense technique of poking the bear in the eye is great because it’s never failed. > [@Hamlet](#): > > I kinda thought the pointing out the diving at the knees of the offensive linemen, the mention of retribution for his players, the mention of the lack of respect for the winning team, and the fact it simply isn’t done in the NFL would give you a hint of why it is “dickish”. Maybe I need a highlighter. I don’t remember any diving at knees. The Giants were whining because the Bucs interior linemen dived _over the top_ to get at Eli. > [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Ah, that’s right, but would a play like that, on the ultra slim chance it would have worked, not have consumed the 5 seconds that were left? Probably, unless the Bucs cleanly recovered the fumble rather than the ball ending up under a pile, but so what? > [@EllisDee](#): > > The Giants are being whiny pussies about it, and it was a bush league, dick move. RNATB is a Bucs fan; of course all he can see is “my team is great!” Hardly. I’d say 90% of my Bucs-related posts have been the opposite. I’m _extremely_ pissed that Schiano didn’t try sending Blount out for a couple of series in the second half when he was obviously trying to run the clock out; if there’s one thing he’s good for, that’s it. I also don’t particularly care for him as a coach; if we were going to hire a college coach, I would have preferred to hire an elite guy instead of a good guy. That said, I’m very impressed with the way the team has performed under him so far. Everyone is blaming the secondary for the loss, but in truth it was the defensive line. Eli had all day to throw; nobody can cover Hicks and Cruz for nine Mississippis. We also ran a bunch of bizarre six-blitzes late, and all the big second half touchdowns came off those plays. Considering how generous Eli was being with the football, there was no need to do anything but drop everyone into coverage and let the Giants run up the middle. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/98 "2012-09-17T22:17:20Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You can’t use the fact that it hasn’t worked as a reason not to do it. It’s never worked in the NFL because, as you point out, nobody does it. You might as well say my grizzly bear defense technique of poking the bear in the eye is great because it’s never failed. But do you really think no NFL coach ever thought about it before and rejected it because it’s a dick move that puts his players at more risk for absolutely no gain? Are we back to Schiano being a genius that came up with something no one else thought of? You know, I’ve never seen a NFL team hike the ball and then start doing the hokey pokey in an attempt to distract the other team. Or hypnosis, I’ve never seen that either. Or running the wrong way to your own one yard line, thereby trying to really stretch out the defense, and then heaving it as hard as you can. There’s reasons certain things aren’t done in the NFL. Being utterly stupid and dickish are a couple of reasons. > [@RNATB](#): > > I don’t remember any diving at knees. The Giants were whining because the Bucs interior linemen dived _over the top_ to get at Eli. “With the game all but over and the Giants prepared to kneel down in the standard “victory” formation, the Bucs defensive line dove hard and low into center David Baas and guard Chris Snee, who were unprepared for an assault.” [Cite](http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/nfl-tampa-bay-buccaneers-violate-rules-diving-giants-offensive-line-eli-manning-a-knee-article-1.1161298). “Several other Giants players expressed disgust with Tampa’s actions after the game was over and guard Chris Snee, via Mike Garafolo of USA TODAY, accused Bucs players of diving with helmets into the knees of the Giants.” [Cite](http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/16/gerald-mccoy-we-do-what-were-coached/) ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/99 "2012-09-17T23:07:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t remember any diving at knees. The Giants were whining because the Bucs interior linemen dived _over the top_ to get at Eli. Your bucs colored glasses must be all fogged up, because this is the exact opposite of what happened. They dove **low and at the knees**. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689/100 "2012-09-17T23:39:51Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > But do you really think no NFL coach ever thought about it before and rejected it because it’s a dick move that puts his players at more risk for absolutely no gain? Are we back to Schiano being a genius that came up with something no one else thought of? What additional risk does it put his players at? > [@EllisDee](#): > > Your bucs colored glasses must be all fogged up, because this is the exact opposite of what happened. They dove **low and at the knees**. Fair enough. That seems kind of pointless. If the Giants were unprepared for it, that’s their fault, though; it was pretty clear the defense was coming on the play. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-2/634689.md?page=6)