# NFL Week 3 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 20, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273 "2012-09-20T15:26:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273/221 "2012-09-25T12:24:16Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Why? Did something happen last night? > > I must have missed it. I had dinner, went to my pottery class, played a little parchesi, and went to bed early with a nice cup of tea and a good book. Nothing of note really happened last night, I’m sure. Not one thing. 😃 I eagerly scoured through this thread looking for a Dio-esque screed from you on the incompetence of the replacement refs. I have to say I admire your restraint. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273/222 "2012-09-25T12:27:06Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > To Gruden and everyone else saying this is the worst call ever deciding a game, I call BULLSHIT. There was a **much worse** call that decided a _playoff_ game by the real refs. 2002 wildcard game, Giants vs 49ers. Geez **Ellis** , let’s have a little respect. Most of the refs that worked way back in that game ARE PROBABLY FUCKING DEAD BY NOW! ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273/223 "2012-09-25T13:15:03Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > 😃 > > I eagerly scoured through this thread looking for a Dio-esque screed from you on the incompetence of the replacement refs. > > I have to say I admire your restraint. Oh. That. I’m just taking a bigger view. I figure that after the Seahawks were ripped off by the real refs in a Super Bowl, they were due to be on the positive side of some of the worst officiating ever by replacement refs who couldn’t find their ass with both hands and the Dummies Guide to Finding Your Own Ass. The officiating on that last drive was a complete and utter joke. Everyone knows that. From the made up pass interference call, to the non-call for Tate literally two handed pushing Shields out of the way on the “touchdown” catch, to the travesty of calling a guy reaching around another guy with one hand a “simultaneous catch”, it was a joke. For the first time, the joke that is the officiating unarguably made the difference in the outcome of the game. There’s really no point to screaming or yelling about it. The NFL owners have taken a hard hit, but the Packers don’t have a strong owner to bully the other owners to make a change. The owners have dug in, this is their product, and people will continue to watch, now, perhaps even more. What’s the “integrity of the game” matter when you can save a couple million a year? I’m hopeful that the Packers can use this as fuel, kinda like they buckled down at the end of the year and the playoffs when they went on to win the Super Bowl. The offense finally made some adjustments (way too late to do it at halftime, but better late than never), and the defense played very well. They just couldn’t beat both the Seahawks and the officials. My screaming about it won’t change that. The NFL should take that picture of the two officials in the end zone each signalling a different ruling and put it on every program, every commercial, and every piece of memorabilia they sell. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273/224 "2012-09-25T13:20:02Z")
> [@Enlightening\_Meditation](#): > > 1. Time had expired during the controversial touchdown play. Why was the extra point play necessary? That play was meaningless other than the final score being 14-12 instead of 13-12. Congratulations, you’re qualified to be a replacement ref, because they were just as confused about this as you. Yes. The extra point is, by rule, necessary to end the game, even if it’s meaningless. > [@](#): > > 1. Why is most of the ire on the net directed at the simultaneous catch, i.e. touchdown, call (well…okay the two refs gave mixed signals initially) instead of the no call on an offensive pass interference? The ruling of a touchdown and simultaneous catch did not strike me as absurd having watched the replays. On a hail mary “jump ball”, refs (even the real ones) often hold their flags and let the players decide the game. Whether this is “right” or not, it’s at least in keeping with the unwritten “refs don’t decide the game” ethos. Additionally, offensive pass interference isn’t called very often at all anyway. But yes, an offensive pass interference call would be even less debatable “by the book” (as opposed to debatable under the aforementioned unwritten rule) than the catch v. interception call. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273/225 "2012-09-25T13:20:31Z")
> [@Enlightening\_Meditation](#): > > I did not watch this game live nor did I care about the outcome. I saw the news headlines this morning about this bizarre ending to the Packers-Seahawks MNF game and I watched the final play. A few questions I have: > > 1. Time had expired during the controversial touchdown play. Why was the extra point play necessary? That play was meaningless other than the final score being 14-12 instead of 13-12. One of the tiebreakers at the end of the season is point differential. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273/226 "2012-09-25T13:22:06Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > To Gruden and everyone else saying this is the worst call ever deciding a game, I call BULLSHIT. There was a **much worse** call that decided a _playoff_ game by the real refs. 2002 wildcard game, Giants vs 49ers. There were probably five worse calls in the Steelers-Seahawks Superbowl. That was the worst-officiated game I have ever seen; Matt Hasselbeck got called for an illegal block while _making a tackle_. [QUOTE=SenorBeef] If I were the real refs this week, I’d think about upping my demands. What’s the NFL going to do, let this go on for a real season? Fine, you guys want to be dicks about a few million? Let’s play hardball. [/QUOTE] Thing is, they just might. If they give the refs pensions, they’d have to give all their _full-time_ employees pensions. ---
**Author:** ![Enlightening\_Meditation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecc23a/32.png) [@Enlightening\_Meditation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enlightening_Meditation)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273/227 "2012-09-25T13:23:03Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > [QUOTE=Enlightening Meditation] > Time had expired during the controversial touchdown play. Why was the extra point play necessary? That play was meaningless other than the final score being 14-12 instead of 13-12. If the defense had blocked the extra point, it could be returned for two points, thus tying the game. Which would have been hilarious. [/QUOTE] Thank you. That mostly makes sense except that a blocked kick followed by a long return for a Packers 2 point play would have made the score 14-13 in favor of the Packers. [QUOTE=Reginald Hobbes] Jennings hands were higher than Tate’s, he grabbed the ball first and pulled it to his chest. Tate reaches in to take it away. They end up on the ground, Jennings has both hands holding the ball to his chest, Tate is basically hugging him from behind, trying to get the ball. How they ruled that as simultaneous is beyond me. [/QUOTE] Thank you for the link and cite. I watched the replays again. It is obvious that Jennings had both hands on the ball first before Tate did. I do not see clear evidence that Jennings had firmly gained control of the ball first, however, and that’s the crux of the call. I disagree with the part about Tate hugging Jennings from behind. They were side-by-side with arms were interlocked upon reaching the ground. Simultaneous catch was a reasonable call…I think. I suppose people will debate this play for the rest of this season and for years to come. The lack of an offensive pass interference call against Tate was the primary referee error on that final play, in my opinion. The mixed signals of two refs was funny. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273/228 "2012-09-25T13:26:13Z")
What was the call on the field? ---
**Author:** ![mkecane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9e8a1a/32.png) [@mkecane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkecane)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273/229 "2012-09-25T13:28:49Z")
**Hamlet** , how much do you think the Packers are missing Philbin? Granted, they’ve played 3 good defenses in a row, but still… What gets me more than the PI call against Shields and the final play was the roughing the passer call when Wilson threw the interception with 3 (?) minutes to play. That was beyond ridiculous. It wasn’t late, and it wasn’t roughing. Also, the Packers don’t have a strong owner, but they do have a very large fan base nationwide. If this had happened to the Seahawks (or Lions or Bills or Bengals…), then I’d say it would have a small effect. I hope this was the last week of the scab refs. If not, I can find something better to do with my Sundays for the next few weeks. I like college football better, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273/230 "2012-09-25T13:30:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What was the call on the field? Touchdown, apparently. Although I heard John Clayton say that the guy who is supposed to make the call, the head referee, didn’t even consult with the two officials who were there making opposite calls. He simply ran to the review booth without a conference. Just another layer of incompetence if true. The NFL will “address” this today. I’d be very surprised if they say anything other than “that one official was right, it was a simultaneous catch and that can’t be overturned on review”. Then they’ll tell us about the faked Apollo moon landing and maybe use a paper towel tube to show that it was impossible for Tate to have been called for Pass Interference. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273/231 "2012-09-25T13:34:54Z")
Remember the old “You Make The Call” feature on MNF? Maybe the NFL should do that. Use twitter or something and let the viewing public make the calls. It couldn’t possibly worse than what we are seeing right now. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273/232 "2012-09-25T13:37:42Z")
> [@mkecane](#): > > **Hamlet** , how much do you think the Packers are missing Philbin? Granted, they’ve played 3 good defenses in a row, but still… I don’t think much, because McCarthy’s been the main playcaller forever. Philbin might have helped much more in the gameplanning, but I think the problem last night was with the Packers’ steadfastly sticking to a gameplan that didn’t work rather than adjusting to the game the defense (and O Line) were playing. That’s been a recurring problem with McCarthy, so I don’t think Philbin would have made much of a difference. > [@mkecane](#): > > What gets me more than the PI call against Shields and the final play was the roughing the passer call when Wilson threw the interception with 3 (?) minutes to play. That was beyond ridiculous. It wasn’t late, and it wasn’t roughing. I thought so too when I saw the replay, but I can’t find it online so I haven’t confirmed it. But my initial perception was that it was another really bad call. There was also another personal foul, I think on Smith, for grazing a guy’s facemask. > [@mkecane](#): > > Also, the Packers don’t have a strong owner, but they do have a very large fan base nationwide. If this had happened to the Seahawks (or Lions or Bills or Bengals…), then I’d say it would have a small effect. I’m not so sure the NFL owners care too much about the outrage. They’re like crack dealers who know their client base will likely keep coming back, so they can get away with cutting their product. And even the real refs fuck up calls. But outside of the Seahawks super bowl loss, I haven’t seen a worst set of officiating in the second half of a game. ---
**Author:** ![mkecane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9e8a1a/32.png) [@mkecane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkecane)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273/233 "2012-09-25T13:38:07Z")
To clarify, a blocked extra point (or interception/fumble recovery on a 2-pt conversion) do not result in 2 points for the defensive team. That’s a college rule. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273/234 "2012-09-25T13:39:06Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > Remember the old “You Make The Call” feature on MNF? Maybe the NFL should do that. Use twitter or something and let the viewing public make the calls. It couldn’t possibly worse than what we are seeing right now. Not the viewing public, they may get it right. Maybe use rabid, brain dead Bonobo monkeys with glaucoma. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273/235 "2012-09-25T13:46:56Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I don’t think much, because McCarthy’s been the main playcaller forever. Philbin might have helped much more in the gameplanning, but I think the problem last night was with the Packers’ steadfastly sticking to a gameplan that didn’t work rather than adjusting to the game the defense (and O Line) were playing. That’s been a recurring problem with McCarthy, so I don’t think Philbin would have made much of a difference. I really think you’re overthinking things. Brady and Brees have looked pretty ordinary, too; Matt Ryan, Ben Roethlisberger and Kevin Kolb (!) are the NFL’s highest rated passers now. I think pretty much all of this is attributable to defensive backs playing tighter and more physically because they perceive the replacement officials as shitty. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273/236 "2012-09-25T13:54:46Z")
> [@Enlightening\_Meditation](#): > > Thank you. That mostly makes sense except that a blocked kick followed by a long return for a Packers 2 point play would have made the score 14-13 in favor of the Packers. No. In the NFL the ball cannot be advanced by the defense on PATs because the ball is dead immediately once the kick is unsuccessful, no matter whether it is blocked or simply misses. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273/237 "2012-09-25T13:58:03Z")
Oh yeah, [this](http://www.flickr.com/photos/25268857@N02/8023232722/) was a simultaneous catch…in Bizarro World. BTW, can we please stop calling them replacement refs and call them by their proper names…scabs. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273/238 "2012-09-25T13:59:16Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I really think you’re overthinking things. Brady and Brees have looked pretty ordinary, too; Matt Ryan, Ben Roethlisberger and Kevin Kolb (!) are the NFL’s highest rated passers now. I think pretty much all of this is attributable to defensive backs playing tighter and more physically because they perceive the replacement officials as shitty. This is where I think the poor officiating is really changing the game. The feeling is that the old rules are out the window, so the style of play is adjusting. I’m sure some of the players feel they will get called for stuff that doesn’t happen, and won’t get called for stuff that does happen. So, let’s cut loose and go crazy! ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273/239 "2012-09-25T14:22:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What was the call on the field? Depends of what ref you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273/240 "2012-09-25T14:38:55Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > This is where I think the poor officiating is really changing the game. The feeling is that the old rules are out the window, so the style of play is adjusting. I’m sure some of the players feel they will get called for stuff that doesn’t happen, and won’t get called for stuff that does happen. So, let’s cut loose and go crazy! According to the Seattle paper, the players and the coaches have been threatened by the NFL with respect to commenting on the poor officiating. The NFL doesn’t care that this kind of screw up can happen, instead they assume that the refs will just get better. It’s up to the fans to start boycotting games. I don’t ever want to see another game where the final score is so questionable that even the refs called it differently. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-3/635273.md?page=13)