# NFL Week 4 - RIP Mike Heimerdinger **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 2, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328 "2011-10-02T04:14:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328/41 "2011-10-02T22:09:04Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The arm concerns were due to an injury he suffered in his last game in college. His arm strength really was pretty weak last year but he’s improved on it substantially, moving him up from bad to okayish. He’s certainly capable of throwing snappy 10-20 yard routes, but he rushes right to his 3 yard dumpoffs way too fast. Part of that is the offensive design - it’s an extreme form of a dink and dunk offense - but it’s pretty ridiculous to play that way down 3 scores. Dude, the defense isn’t going to allow more than dink and dunk when they’re up by that much. The offense in general isn’t too hot, but 6 dropped passes and a bizarre unwillingness to give Hillis the ball 20+ times a game don’t help. The Browns just performed poorly today, flat out. On that long TD throw they had Fujita in coverage, who’s too slow for that, and Usama Young took one of the worst angles on the ball carrier I’ve ever seen and totally whiffed. And the less we say about that INT return, the better. Just a lazy effort. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328/42 "2011-10-02T22:14:44Z")
What? Teams complete 10 yard passes against loose coverages in garbage time routinely - that’s exactly when it’s easiest not to throw 3 yard routes. I wasn’t asking for a bomb on every play - I’m literally talking about passes to receivers that are 4 yards or less from the line of scrimmage 70%+ of the time when they were down 3 TDs. They did the same thing when they were down with the clock running down in Cinci - 4 yard passes to a well covered RB over and over again. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328/43 "2011-10-02T22:28:31Z")
The bits and pieces of the Broncos-Packers game I’ve seen in between NASCAR and baseball, the Broncos haven’t looked that bad, but, jeez, every time I switch back they’ve given up another touchdown. I’m going to assume I’m missing something. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328/44 "2011-10-02T22:32:40Z")
Do defensive coordinators know they are allowed to cover Wed Weller? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328/45 "2011-10-02T22:57:02Z")
Was just looking at my fantasy team. Once again, Wes Welker delivers monster stats–but he’s only starting for 97% of the teams that have him. How the hell do you not start Welker if you’ve got him on the roster? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328/46 "2011-10-02T23:24:34Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Was just looking at my fantasy team. Once again, Wes Welker delivers monster stats–but he’s only starting for 97% of the teams that have him. How the hell do you not start Welker if you’ve got him on the roster? 2 team leagues? ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328/47 "2011-10-03T00:20:44Z")
Re: the controversial play at the end of the Giants game, watching it live my automatic assumption was that Cruz went down intentionally; he didn’t trip over his own feet or anything, but rather looked around, saw himself surrounded, went to ground, and then dropped the ball _because_ he felt that he’d already ended the play. Could be wrong, and I’m not positive that what I described constitutes “giving yourself up” according to the rules, and if the call had gone the other way I wouldn’t have any margin to complain … but it did seem to me that the call was correct. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328/48 "2011-10-03T00:35:28Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Re: the controversial play at the end of the Giants game, watching it live my automatic assumption was that Cruz went down intentionally; he didn’t trip over his own feet or anything, but rather looked around, saw himself surrounded, went to ground, and then dropped the ball _because_ he felt that he’d already ended the play. > > Could be wrong, and I’m not positive that what I described constitutes “giving yourself up” according to the rules, and if the call had gone the other way I wouldn’t have any margin to complain … but it did seem to me that the call was correct. Not to display my ignorance for all to see, but I was unaware of the giving yourself up rule and I couldn’t find it in my quick perusal of the rulebook. If it’s in there, I think it was pretty clear that he had given himself up and I would have no problem with the call. ---
**Author:** ![Brandon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f08c70/32.png) [@Brandon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brandon)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328/49 "2011-10-03T00:36:40Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Re: the controversial play at the end of the Giants game, watching it live my automatic assumption was that Cruz went down intentionally; he didn’t trip over his own feet or anything, but rather looked around, saw himself surrounded, went to ground, and then dropped the ball _because_ he felt that he’d already ended the play. > > Could be wrong, and I’m not positive that what I described constitutes “giving yourself up” according to the rules, and if the call had gone the other way I wouldn’t have any margin to complain … but it did seem to me that the call was correct. You would be the first person I’ve seen say that the call was correct. In my opinion, that was an egregiously poor call. I don’t think flopping around, losing your balance, and falling face first counts as giving yourself up. Like you, I only saw it live though, and I may be misremembering how it played out. With that said, Cards definitely deserved to lose. Sometimes reffing mistakes happen, and sometimes silly NFL rules get in the way of the game itself. Good teams overcome, Cards ain’t a good team. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328/50 "2011-10-03T00:38:44Z")
> [@Brandon](#): > > You would be the first person I’ve seen say that the call was correct. In my opinion, that was an egregiously poor call. I don’t think flopping around, losing your balance, and falling face first counts as giving yourself up. Like you, I only saw it live though, and I may be misremembering how it played out. Again, I haven’t seen the replay, but it seemed pretty clear to me that he didn’t stumble down or even attempt to get up again. He went down, then kinda tossed the ball away after he was down and as he got up to go onto the next play. When the ref made the call, I thought it was spot on. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328/51 "2011-10-03T00:39:34Z")
> [@Jules\_Andre](#): > > Oh my god this ref has it in for the Eagles. Yeah, sure. I’m not which is better, a comeback win like that on the road (at 10:00am, no less) or the fact that it happened against a fan base so ready to turn on their dream team. Go **NINERS!** ---
**Author:** ![Brandon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f08c70/32.png) [@Brandon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brandon)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328/52 "2011-10-03T00:49:08Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Again, I haven’t seen the replay, but it seemed pretty clear to me that he didn’t stumble down or even attempt to get up again. He went down, then kinda tossed the ball away after he was down and as he got up to go onto the next play. When the ref made the call, I thought it was spot on. I haven’t seen a replay either, so my recollection might be incorrect, but I thought he lost his balance and just kind of fell down (though I do remember a Card touching him earlier in the run), then left the ball where he fell. He obviously thought the play was over, but calls aren’t (supposed to be) made based on what the individual player thinks. I might just have to wait for a replay and get another look since it seemed to be pretty clear to both of you. ---
**Author:** ![Brandon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f08c70/32.png) [@Brandon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brandon)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328/53 "2011-10-03T01:45:06Z")
[Here’s the replay.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1tokHtcvZo) After getting a better view, it doesn’t look like he tripped the way I initially thought. Not sure what to make of everything else that transpired. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328/54 "2011-10-03T02:06:14Z")
> [@Brandon](#): > > [Here’s the replay.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1tokHtcvZo) > > After getting a better view, it doesn’t look like he tripped the way I initially thought. > > Not sure what to make of everything else that transpired. Looks like I thought, he goes to the ground intentionally, stays down, and while getting up and going backward, flicks the ball down. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328/55 "2011-10-03T02:07:15Z")
By the by, this Jets/Ravens game is dogshit. The complete offensive ineptitude is unwatchable. I think I’ll catchup on my Party Down queue. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328/56 "2011-10-03T02:40:01Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Again, I haven’t seen the replay, but it seemed pretty clear to me that he didn’t stumble down or even attempt to get up again. He went down, then kinda tossed the ball away after he was down and as he got up to go onto the next play. When the ref made the call, I thought it was spot on. It was weird. Cruz fell in a very awkward manner. It didn’t look like he tripped, but it didn’t look like he went down on purpose either. My impression was that he lost his balance unintentionally and lost the ball when he hit the ground unintentionally. He obviously thought he was down and I think he hustled back to the huddle in some embarrassment over the clumsy play. I’d have ruled it a fumble. However, I can see a case in which Cruz saw himself surrounded and gave himself up but I think it’s on the player to make it abundantly clear that he’s giving himself up. Any time I’ve seen a player give himself up it’s been via a slide, or a obvious kneel down and/or turtling over the ball. Cruz might have been trying to give himself up, but he did it so unclearly that I wouldn’t give him the benefit of the doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Brandon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f08c70/32.png) [@Brandon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brandon)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328/57 "2011-10-03T02:40:37Z")
Well it does seem like the interpretation you and **VarlosZ** had was closer to what happened. It certainly wasn’t as bad of a call as I first thought. However, from what I am seeing, most are are claiming the call was incorrect. Why is that? Not a loaded question, I’m just trying to understand better. Is it just one of those rules that is pretty subjective and should be improved? When did the whistle happen? Would that change things at all? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328/58 "2011-10-03T02:44:39Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > By the by, this Jets/Ravens game is dogshit. The complete offensive ineptitude is unwatchable. I think I’ll catchup on my Party Down queue. There’s always baseball. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328/59 "2011-10-03T02:45:06Z")
> [@Brandon](#): > > Why is that? Not a loaded question, I’m just trying to understand better. Is it just one of those rules that is pretty subjective and should be improved? Listening to what the NBC guys are saying, they tend to agree with my point of view. To paraphrase my understanding of what they clumsily are saying, essentially Cruz might have intended to give himself up but his did a really poor job of doing it clearly. It’s sort of like the fair catch call, it’s incumbent on the return man to make the waive abundantly clear to everyone. Cruz definitely didn’t do that. NBC put the full rule on the screen and I think it is written too vaguely to be acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Brandon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f08c70/32.png) [@Brandon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brandon)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328/60 "2011-10-03T02:47:46Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Listening to what the NBC guys are saying, they tend to agree with my point of view. To paraphrase my understanding of what they clumsily are saying, essentially Cruz might have intended to give himself up but his did a really poor job of doing it clearly. It’s sort of like the fair catch call, it’s incumbent on the return man to make the waive abundantly clear to everyone. Cruz definitely didn’t do that. NBC put the full rule on the screen and I think it is written too vaguely to be acceptable. Got ya. Thanks for the explanation. I think it is pretty vague too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-4-rip-mike-heimerdinger/598328.md?page=4)