# NFL Week 5 - The Lost Weekend **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 9, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156 "2009-10-09T03:45:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156/61 "2009-10-12T01:42:05Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Not tape, but I said the exact same thing when I saw the reply. The flag was well in the air before the Pats guy even began to make a gesture or said a thing. It was the wrong call. I thought it was pretty clear that the ref was thinking either pass interference or, more likely, late hit, and changed his mind after he threw the flag. But the flag, when thrown, wasn’t for taunting. Unless the ref took advantage of a wormhole in the space time continuum. Should he have ignored the taunting, then, simply because he threw a flag that otherwise would have been picked up? ---
**Author:** ![Jorge\_Burrito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Jorge\_Burrito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jorge_Burrito)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156/62 "2009-10-12T01:42:42Z")
The announcers claimed that there was a second flag by another official that was for the taunting call. The flag the official threw nearest to the play was presumably going to be pass interference but ball was tipped so that penalty got waived off. I am a Broncos fan, but that was a bad call regardless of whether their was a second flag or not. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156/63 "2009-10-12T01:49:38Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Should he have ignored the taunting, then, simply because he threw a flag that otherwise would have been picked up? I don’t have a whole lot of love for “taunting” calls, and this one wasn’t egregious, so yes, he should have put the flag in his pocket and admit he was wrong for throwing the flag, or, as I read the other posts, the other flag for taunting was baloney. ---
**Author:** ![Jorge\_Burrito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Jorge\_Burrito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jorge_Burrito)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156/64 "2009-10-12T01:49:56Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > Certainly not, but any team who has ever slighted the Pats and then faced them again later that season knows the difference between just getting beaten by the Patriots and being forced to suffer abject humiliation. The Patriots put up a lot of unnecessary extra points and various other slights to many teams in there 16-0 run. I am more than happy to see teams rub there faces in losses right now (it wasn’t the same last year to beat up on the Patriots with Brady out). If the Broncos play the Patriots in the playoffs I am pretty sure there will be motivation enough on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156/65 "2009-10-12T01:53:10Z")
Even if there wasn’t a second flag from a different official, I think it was mostly likely that the side judge (?) threw the flag pre-taunt for pass interference, and didn’t bother to throw anything else (his hat, e.g.) for the taunt. And I don’t know how you could NOT consider that a taunt. Seemed pretty textbook to me – Merriwether stood over the receiver, looked down, and did the “Get that shit OUTTA here” wave. If that’s not taunting, then throw out the rule. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156/66 "2009-10-12T02:59:52Z")
4-1 and tops in the AFCN. Bitches. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156/67 "2009-10-12T05:02:09Z")
> [@HongKongFooey](#): > > You’re not paying attention. Harrison isn’t going to the ground on those calls, he gets under the pad level of the lineman and the NFL has said it is holding when Harrison gets around on the player and the arm is still around his neck. In other words the only reason he can’t make the play his because of the collar, not the position of the LT’s body. That play has not been called and it happens 10-15 times per game. Not every pass rusher can make the same argument; Elvis Dumervil is the only other pass rusher I can think of that this applies to. If the arm is around the neck, it’s a hold. It almost never happens that this is not called. 90% of the plays you complain about are a OT with hands on the top of his shoulder pads. Were Harrison taller they’d be on the front of his pads. That is not a hold. That is the burden of having a DE/OLB who’s very short. For years short pass rushers have been avoided in the draft because of the fear of being engulfed by large blockers. These fears are why Harrison went undrafted, he’s better than people thought but these issues that you are harping about were as real then as they are now. The fact that he’s been a star does nothing to change the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Brother\_Walker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f08c70/32.png) [@Uncle\_Brother\_Walker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Brother_Walker)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156/68 "2009-10-12T06:00:05Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Regarding the Broncos-Patriots > Any one else having deja vu? > > I’m wondering if I’m completely biased, but I rewound to see the Taunting call against the Patriot, and I am honestly very sure the flag left the referee’s hand before the Patriots DB even had his hand out to point at the guy hey (legally) took down. Anyone have it on tape to confirm? > > I don’t know if “Taunting” is now official NFL-speak for “Screw you Patriots and/or team that isn’t being tongue-washed by the media” or is just NFL-speak for “An official didn’t realize the ball had been tipped and threw the flag for Pass Interference, and we’re just going to pick some other foul rather than having to admit the mistake” I saw it live, and my friend called BS on it. Until the replay. Then she corrected herself. She agreed the flag was thrown before the foul occurred. More favoritism in the NFL … go fig. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156/69 "2009-10-12T10:05:41Z")
Can taunting be verbal? Dude could have said something worthy of a Zidane head-butt that drew a taunting foul before the hand wave. ---
**Author:** ![HongKongFooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c4cdca/32.png) [@HongKongFooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HongKongFooey)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156/70 "2009-10-12T10:49:54Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > If the arm is around the neck, it’s a hold. It almost never happens that this is not called. 90% of the plays you complain about are a OT with hands on the top of his shoulder pads. Were Harrison taller they’d be on the front of his pads. That is not a hold. That is the burden of having a DE/OLB who’s very short. For years short pass rushers have been avoided in the draft because of the fear of being engulfed by large blockers. These fears are why Harrison went undrafted, he’s better than people thought but these issues that you are harping about were as real then as they are now. The fact that he’s been a star does nothing to change the rules. No, emphatically no. The arm is around Harrison’s neck on the plays we’re “whining” about. It’s not getting called. Harrison received an explanation from Mike Pereira last year at a team meeting which amounted to reading between the lines to say they are going to protect the quarterback. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156/71 "2009-10-12T12:08:13Z")
> [@HongKongFooey](#): > > No, emphatically no. The arm is around Harrison’s neck on the plays we’re “whining” about. It’s not getting called. Harrison received an explanation from Mike Pereira last year at a team meeting which amounted to reading between the lines to say they are going to protect the quarterback. Cite? What does holding have to do with protecting the QB? I’m going to suggest that the meeting was about late hits and Harrison is manipulating it to make it about holding. Incidentally, I’ve watched a TON of Steelers games and have seen maybe 2 or 3 calls ever where anything like you are saying is the case. There was much teeth gnashing over the Super Bowl and it was all complete and utter dreck. The black and gold glasses are blinding you. ---
**Author:** ![HongKongFooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c4cdca/32.png) [@HongKongFooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HongKongFooey)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156/72 "2009-10-12T12:23:19Z")
How am I supposed to cite that? The meeting was about late hits on the QB and James Harrison had the opportunity to ask about the holding calls at the end of the meeting and it’s about protecting the quarterbacks because that’s why Left Tackles hold pass rushers. This Steelers fan doesn’t wear Black and Gold glasses. Hines Ward plays dirty, Ben is a drama queen, and James Harrison gets held on almost every play. By the way, if anyone cares, the Steelers play the Browns this weekend where James Harrison will match up against Joe Thomas. Thomas has played him better than anyone I can think of since Harrison became the starter. If you want to see how a Left Tackle should handle James Harrison this will be the weekend to do it. They may be able to stunt him inside or use him to allow Timmons to stunt to the outside but if the past games are any indication it will be a tough day for Silverback. One area the Browns can’t complain about is the left side of their line, that’s for sure, those guys are solid. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156/73 "2009-10-12T13:13:02Z")
> [@](#): > > BUFFALO 6 Cleveland 40½ > Yikes, another pig of a game. It must have been. Derek Anderson is 2 of 17? Three field goals? Man, that’s ugly. What a day for Miles Austin; 10 for 250 in his first start or Dallas loses to an 0 - 4. What a lackluster team the Boys have become. Schaub, your across field wounded duck to a covered receiver, did you learn that from Rosenfels? ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156/74 "2009-10-12T17:58:05Z")
> [@HongKongFooey](#): > > How am I supposed to cite that? The meeting was about late hits on the QB and James Harrison had the opportunity to ask about the holding calls at the end of the meeting and it’s about protecting the quarterbacks because that’s why Left Tackles hold pass rushers. This Steelers fan doesn’t wear Black and Gold glasses. Hines Ward plays dirty, Ben is a drama queen, and James Harrison gets held on almost every play. Well, I assume you weren’t in the room for this conversation. You must have read it on ESPN or a local newspaper. I’d like to see the comments. I’m at a loss to see how a discussion about late hits on the QB and roughing the passer somehow led him to believe that refs are ignoring holding in service to that. If this were the case and it were reported as such I would have expected a media shit storm, the PTI guys would be frothing at the mouth at this implication. It sounds like a very dubious and self serving interpretation from Harrison. I’m a Bears fan and a defensive nut. I think the new protect the QB rules are a bit insane and the penalties in that Ravens-Pats game were over the top. I get it. And I’m fully aware that pass rushers get held a lot, and every single one would say they are held on every play. Just like every WR will swear up and down that there are always open. It’s a bit silly and incredibly self serving. I’ve screamed about uncalled holds in many a Bears-Packers game, but this constant implication that Harrison is suffering from some directed conspiracy or is somehow invisible to the zerbas reeks of a persecution complex. Harrison is no different from anyone else in this respect, he just gets a shitload of attention and TV time. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156/75 "2009-10-12T18:07:25Z")
I also think the average NFL fan is bad at telling what’s actually holding or not. There are many times I’ve seen someone do a textbook block and heard others scream “LOOK! HOLDING!” I don’t really buy that there’s “holding on every play” in the way that the NFL actually calls holding a penalty. Just because you have your hands gripping a guy doesn’t mean it’s holding - it depends on where your hands are, leverage, pad level, etc. ---
**Author:** ![HongKongFooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c4cdca/32.png) [@HongKongFooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HongKongFooey)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156/76 "2009-10-12T19:17:07Z")
Many players have blogs and Twitter feeds, not everything is citable but there is a reference [here](http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_637487.html) where Harrison was told the same thing as at last year’s meeting: > [@](#): > > “The ref told me if he has his arm around me, and my feet are past his feet, then it’s a hold,” Harrison said. “We’ll see if that’s called. Sometimes, they call it, sometimes, they don’t. They can’t catch everything.” The first meeting was about late hits and such. Harrison asked for clarification of the holding rule at the end of the meeting, totally unrelated to the discussion on late hits. Other rule clarifications such as Hines Ward’s crackback hit on Keith Rivers were discussed as well but the meeting was brought about to clear up the rules about QBs. I heard the Ravens had a meeting too but I don’t know if that’s true or not. I don’t have a cite for this either but the Steelers sent a tape to the league regarding five plays during the Chicago game where they felt Orlando Pace was given too much leeway. The argument that holding occurs on every play is certainly true. James Harrison has said he understands they can’t call them all. The specific issue they have complained about are these cases where the only thing keeping him from getting around the LT is the arm around the neck. If this were getting called more often teams would have to bring a guard over to help like they do with Dwight Freeney. Teams _are_ getting called more for illegal formations when the Tackles line up too far behind the line so they can get back quicker. I’d be curious to know if that was brought up in those meetings. That might be what the league is going to call instead since it’s much more clear when that happens. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156/77 "2009-10-12T19:28:15Z")
In other, not pantywaisted whining news, Aaron Rodgers was not sacked a single time this weekend!!! Woo Hooo!!! ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156/78 "2009-10-12T19:31:56Z")
I really hope Clifton comes back after the bye, he’s desperately needed. Rodgers is amazing, though, to do what he’s done so far behind a sieve. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156/79 "2009-10-12T19:58:59Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > In Chicago we are being treated to 2 games this morning in our bye week and we get to watch Rams-Vikes and Lions-Steelers. Not a whole lot of drama or excitement to be had. They are divisional games so I understand the logic, but I really wish they’d switch to Cincy-Baltimore or Brownies-Buffalo. > > In other news, the troika of Anderson, Harrison and Massaquoi have netted me a total of 1.27 points _combined_! Fucking Browns! Damn you **SenorBeef**. > [kirk] > BEEEEEEFFFFFFFFFFF!!! > [/kirk] I forgot to respond to this. Not my fault. I didn’t tell you to start Anderson or Massaquoi, and I told you I couldn’t vouch for Harrison getting the carries, just that if he did he’d do well with them. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156/80 "2009-10-13T03:51:15Z")
That was a sad ass hail mary throw. I was happy the Dolphins won after they got hosed on that important phantom PI call. It’s fun to watch Miami’s offense. Even when they don’t run the wildcat, there’s a lot of misdirection and movement in their run game, and Ronnie Brown can do it all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-5-the-lost-weekend/513156.md?page=5)