# NFL Week 6 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 14, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657 "2011-10-14T18:27:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657/161 "2011-10-18T20:25:46Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > WWAD > What Would Al Do? > > I’d like this trade if I were too a Raider fan. They’re going all in **this year**. They’re really good except at QB, and play in a weak division. Win now, not later. That’s a good attitude to have; you can see how quickly things can go off the rails (Indianapolis). In reading about it, Palmer is apparently very familiar with Hue not only from Hue’s days in Cinci, but Hue was also the OC at USC when Palmer was there. On top of that Marvin Lewis is Hue Jackson’s best friend and they run similar offensive schemes (or so say the Oakland beat writers on twitter) so… Palmer might be starting Sunday. I don’t know how I feel about any of this anymore. I am a mixture of excited that the Raiders are clearly all in, and terrified that this is all going to blow up right when things are looking good for the first time since 2002. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657/162 "2011-10-18T20:27:59Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > So, out of curiosity, what is the 2012 draft class projecting to look like? I don’t normally follow the draft this far out, but with Oakland taking Carson Palmer in the 1st, (I can’t remember who the 2nd round went to) Pryor in the 3rd, Campbell in the 4th, and Curry in the 7th, I am wondering what they are missing out on. > Edit: the second round went to pick up Taiwan Jones and Joseph Barksdale. Future RB and Future RG/RT respectively. A cursory look at the 2012 NFL Draft entry on Wikipedia shows that, indeed, all Oakland has left is a fifth and a sixth. Maybe they could package those to pick up one of those crappy-but-fast CBs that always seems to pop up each year. ---
**Author:** ![Jules\_Andre](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jules_andre/32/9334_2.png) [@Jules\_Andre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jules_Andre)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657/163 "2011-10-18T20:53:04Z")
The Eagles traded Ronnie Brown of [run/pass option fame](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XMbyFOrfbSo) to the Lions for a 7th round pick and Jerome “Greatest of All Time” Harrison. ([source](http://www.freep.com/article/20111018/SPORTS01/111018043/Lions-trade-RB-Ronnie-Brown-before-deadline)) ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657/164 "2011-10-18T20:55:41Z")
Why the hell did they let him go at the end of last year then? They’ve now traded for him twice in 2 years. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657/165 "2011-10-18T20:56:16Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > I’d like this trade if I were too a Raider fan. They’re going all in **this year**. They’re really good except at QB, and play in a weak division. Win now, not later. That’s a good attitude to have; you can see how quickly things can go off the rails (Indianapolis). Going all-in for one season is defensible when you’re a good team with a realistic shot at winning it all. If the Saints or Chargers or Eagles or Ravens wanted to deal away a number-one pick to fill a position of need, that’s not a horrible idea: one more good player, right now, could make them into a champion. The Raiders are not that team. They were 2-6 outside their division last year. Their 4-2 start has included four close wins, including by one score over Cleveland and Denver. One more good player, right now, maybe makes them 10-6 instead of 8-8. Mortgaging the future for a title run is one thing; doing it for a wild-card berth is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657/166 "2011-10-18T21:01:01Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Going all-in for one season is defensible when you’re a good team with a realistic shot at winning it all. If the Saints or Chargers or Eagles or Ravens wanted to deal away a number-one pick to fill a position of need, that’s not a horrible idea: one more good player, right now, could make them into a champion. > > The Raiders are not that team. They were 2-6 outside their division last year. Their 4-2 start has included four close wins, including by one score over Cleveland and Denver. One more good player, right now, maybe makes them 10-6 instead of 8-8. Mortgaging the future for a title run is one thing; doing it for a wild-card berth is stupid. This is more than a one year deal. I believe Palmer is under contract until 2014. And number 1 picks are not gimme starter or superstars. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657/167 "2011-10-18T21:22:00Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > This is more than a one year deal. I believe Palmer is under contract until 2014. And number 1 picks are not gimme starter or superstars. And you expect the team, including Palmer, to be better in 2013 than it is now? Why, precisely? No, top picks are not gimmes; but historically speaking, two picks gave them about a 50/50 chance of drafting at least one Pro Bowl player. (1st round ~ 40%, 2nd round ~15%) Said player would be young, cheap, and presumably play at a position of need. Long-term, QB, was not a position of need for them: Campbell is OK, 29, and not all that expensive. Pryor gave them a developmental guy. If they weren’t sold on Campbell, in the offseason they could have brought someone like Vince Young in as an affordable FA. Palmer is only marginally better than Campbell, is 32 with an injury history, and will cost shitloads more. So in order to get a player that, long-term, they didn’t need, they greatly hampered their ability to fix their weaknesses. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657/168 "2011-10-18T21:58:59Z")
> [@Jules\_Andre](#): > > The Eagles traded Ronnie Brown of [run/pass option fame](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XMbyFOrfbSo) to the Lions for a 7th round pick and Jerome “Greatest of All Time” Harrison. ([source](http://www.freep.com/article/20111018/SPORTS01/111018043/Lions-trade-RB-Ronnie-Brown-before-deadline)) So, a team that needs help in short yardage trades for a running back from a team that was even worse in short yardage. That makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657/169 "2011-10-18T22:02:20Z")
If you ask Jerome Harrison to get you a 3rd and 1, he won’t stop until he’s actually gone around the earth so fast as to go back in time and bang your mom and become your father. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657/170 "2011-10-18T23:35:09Z")
Wonder if the Eagles will bench him before he’s officially on the roster. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657/171 "2011-10-18T23:37:38Z")
> [@furt](#): > > And you expect the team, including Palmer, to be better in 2013 than it is now? Why, precisely? Well the Raiders have a very good O-line, a young stud running back, some young and pretty good receivers. They need to improve on defense. but I have no reason to believe they can’t be as good or better next year with Palmer at the helm. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657/172 "2011-10-18T23:48:05Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > What the fuckity fuck? Is Al Davis still running the team? > > Who were they bidding against? No one else was probably even in the running. They were bidding against the possibility of the Bengals getting nothing. How high do you have to bid to outdo nothing? Certainly hit a first and first/second. > > If they offered a second round or even third round pick, was Mike Brown gonna say nah I’d rather just let my football team suffer? Maybe, given what a fucking retard he is. I can’t believe being a retard actually worked out in his favor - the Raiders knew logically that any reasonable pick should get the job done because no one else was bidding and Cinci had no incentive to keep him, but they also knew Mike Brown was a dumb stubborn asshole and in desperation might have to overcome his desire to stick it to Carson Palmer. > > How fucking stubborn and dumb he is actually worked out in his favors. Fuck that Raiders for making that happen. Palmer is better than I think you give him credit for. I hated on him for quitting on the team, and he certainly has his shortcomings, but a strong arm and being accurate aren’t among them. He does need good pass protection though, so I’m not sure how that will work out with the Raiders. They do have a good running game and defense, which will certainly help. Palmer’s long history with Hue Jackson I am certain was also a factor in what they were willing to give up. There’s also the little thing about how professionals are paid to evaluate talent and that we fans don’t really know jack shit, too. > [@garygnu](#): > > WWAD > What Would Al Do? > > I’d like this trade if I were too a Raider fan. They’re going all in **this year**. They’re really good except at QB, and play in a weak division. Win now, not later. That’s a good attitude to have; you can see how quickly things can go off the rails (Indianapolis). If I were a Raiders fan I would like it too. Palmer is going to come out rejuvenated. For whatever reason, he feels jilted by the Bengals making him a multi-millionaire many times over (he was probably mad about being saddled in Bob Bratkowski’s offense for so long as Brat was a Mike Brown guy and Marvin couldn’t fire him, and also because Palmer needs really good o-line protection which he wasn’t getting the last few seasons outside of Andrew Whitworth, who is quietly one of the best LT’s in the game…you can draw a timeline between Palmer’s decline in production dating back to 2007 when the Pro Bowl tackles Willie Anderson and Levi Jones began to get old/injured and his outlet guy TJ leaving, along with the mental implosion of OchoCinco and the addition of Terrell Owens…whom Palmer lobbied for, stupidly enough…)… Palmer is not a bad QB. He’s Drew Bledsoe v 2.0. You know what you have with him. > [@NAF1138](#): > > In reading about it, Palmer is apparently very familiar with Hue not only from Hue’s days in Cinci, but Hue was also the OC at USC when Palmer was there. On top of that Marvin Lewis is Hue Jackson’s best friend and they run similar offensive schemes (or so say the Oakland beat writers on twitter) so… Palmer might be starting Sunday. > > I don’t know how I feel about any of this anymore. I am a mixture of excited that the Raiders are clearly all in, and terrified that this is all going to blow up right when things are looking good for the first time since 2002. Its a big deal that Hue is the coach of the Raiders and has a long history with Palmer. People don’t seem to realize how big that is on the surface. You’re right…I expect Palmer to start next Sunday with a limited playbook and to be calling his own plays from scrimmage in just a couple weeks. People always act like offenses in the NFL are soooooo complicated when they really are more about all 11 guys executing in synchronicity. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Why the hell did they let him go at the end of last year then? They’ve now traded for him twice in 2 years. I agree with you. Outside of his poor YPC in Detroit (for obvious reasons), he’s been money whenever he plays. Nobody seems to want to play him. There has to be a reason. > [@furt](#): > > And you expect the team, including Palmer, to be better in 2013 than it is now? Why, precisely? > > No, top picks are not gimmes; but historically speaking, two picks gave them about a 50/50 chance of drafting at least one Pro Bowl player. (1st round ~ 40%, 2nd round ~15%) Said player would be young, cheap, and presumably play at a position of need. > > Long-term, QB, was not a position of need for them: Campbell is OK, 29, and not all that expensive. Pryor gave them a developmental guy. If they weren’t sold on Campbell, in the offseason they could have brought someone like Vince Young in as an affordable FA. Palmer is only marginally better than Campbell, is 32 with an injury history, and will cost shitloads more. > > So in order to get a player that, long-term, they didn’t need, they greatly hampered their ability to fix their weaknesses. I don’t agree. Palmer’s injury history amounts to his knee injury in the 2005 playoff game after which he put up Pro Bowl numbers in 2006, despite the Bengals missing the playoffs that year, so that wasn’t an issue, and an elbow injury in 2008, where he sat most of the year, only to lead a gutty team with a decent defense, a scrappy running game and little else to a divisional sweep in 2009. Palmer put in the right situation (good oline and receivers) will win you a playoff game. Duh…that’s every NFL QB, right? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657/173 "2011-10-19T02:13:15Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Its a big deal that Hue is the coach of the Raiders and has a long history with Palmer. People don’t seem to realize how big that is on the surface. You’re right…I expect Palmer to start next Sunday with a limited playbook and to be calling his own plays from scrimmage in just a couple weeks. People always act like offenses in the NFL are soooooo complicated when they really are more about all 11 guys executing in synchronicity. Hue Jackson may be the head coach, but Al Saunders is the offensive coordinator and Palmer has no familiarity with his system. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657/174 "2011-10-19T02:25:31Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Well the Raiders have a very good O-line, a young stud running back, some young and pretty good receivers. They need to improve on defense. but I have no reason to believe they can’t be as good or better next year with Palmer at the helm. I’d say “a decent offensive line, excellent if injury-prone RB, and a collection of unproven WRs, none of which has ever caught more than 41 passes in a season, and a defense that is 1) aging 2) giving up 400 yards per game.” Put it this way: the list of Raiders players who figure to be better in two seasons-- guys who are 24 and younger – is longer than the list of guys 29 or older, who they figure to be worse in two years. And given that they’ve opted out of the NFL’s main talent-acquisition mechanism for a season in order to replace one slightly above-average QB with another … I’d expect by 2013 they’re back to 5-11. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657/175 "2011-10-19T02:45:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Hue Jackson may be the head coach, but Al Saunders is the offensive coordinator and Palmer has no familiarity with his system. It’s Hue’s system, Saunders is just coaching it. The offense looks exactly the same as it did last year when Jackson was OC and Jackson still calls the plays. He was hired by “Coach” Davis on the strength if his system and he isn’t changing it. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657/176 "2011-10-19T05:26:16Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Hue Jackson may be the head coach, but Al Saunders is the offensive coordinator and Palmer has no familiarity with his system. Matt Cassell can clue him in, if not, the Redskins offensive players from 2008 or so. Someone is bound to figure out that complicated offense sooner or later. Al says so. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657/177 "2011-10-19T14:48:50Z")
Pardon my ignorance, but I don’t know that I ever saw Carson Palmer while he played; my interested in football only really blossomed while he was sitting it out. How good was he, and how much of a grab would he have been back then? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657/178 "2011-10-19T14:59:00Z")
From 2005 to 2007, he was arguably one of the top 5 quarterbacks in the game. Most people were looking at him as the next Peyton Manning; he and Ochocinco drew many, many comparisons to Manning/Marvin Harrison among talking heads and the like. He hurt his elbow in 2008, and everything went a bit south. At first the injury was misdiagnosed, so he kept trying to practice with what turned out to be a ligament and tendon tear. When he came back in 2009, his arm didn’t seem to be the same. He did throw for 4,000 yards last season, but he also threw 20 picks. I put that down to loss of arm strength; when you can’t throw the ball as hard, defensive backs have more time to react. Put it this way: there’s a chance the Raiders are getting one of the game’s 10 best quarterbacks (ie., if it really took 2 years to fully recover from the elbow injury). There’s a much better chance they’re getting classic Jake Delhomme: good enough to win games for a team that runs the ball, not good enough to put a team on his back. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657/179 "2011-10-19T16:57:31Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > Pardon my ignorance, but I don’t know that I ever saw Carson Palmer while he played; my interested in football only really blossomed while he was sitting it out. How good was he, and how much of a grab would he have been back then? In 05-07, he was top 5: a terrific downfield passer. Since 2008, he’s been another guy; the injury is the common explantion, but I’ve also heard lost confidence or whatever. Statistically, his yards-per-completion and interception rate haven’t changed nearly as much as his completion %, so I wonder if the arm strength is really the issue. I expect we’ll see plenty of fly patterns to give us the answer … ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657/180 "2011-10-19T16:59:14Z")
I think that Carson’s struggles in late 2009 were directly tied to the lack of quality offensive line play, and the loss of Chris Henry. And defenses were adjusted to the Bengals running with the unbalanced line. Palmer would struggle without reliable and decent targets from the tail end of 2009 through the entire 2010 season, during which he forced a ton of throws into coverage to try to get the ball to TO. That resulted in a lot of Pick 6’s. I’m trying not to sound like a Carson apologist here, but what I guess I am trying to say is that Palmer’s issues were mental and the talent around him, not his arm. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-6/599657.md?page=10)