# Nfl week 9 from outer space **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 31, 2019, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774 "2019-10-31T14:31:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774/41 "2019-11-01T20:35:47Z")
Using Hamlet logic, Aaron Rodger’s career isn’t remotely as impressive as Tom Brady’s, yet Rodgers has been paid on par with Brady. Does that mean Rodgers is wildly overpaid? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774/42 "2019-11-01T20:49:17Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > You’re ignoring my direct question. The Giants did NOT sign and keep Eli because they believed he could put up great passing stats. They signed and kept him because they believed he could win championships. > > Were they right or wrong? They were correct. They were able to win a championship with him. Just as the Ravens were able to with Flacco and Trent Dilfer before him. Just as the Eagles were able to with Nick Foles. Etc. Etc. > [@Ellis Dee](#): > > Your complaint is with the _system_, not the teams, but you then “blame” the teams for it. That’s intellectually dishonest. How about you pull the reins on the “dishonest” bullshit? If you can’t have a discussion without that kind of namecalling, maybe you should take a break. > [@Ellis Dee](#): > > Teams don’t get to choose between paying a player a ton or paying them less. They get to choose between paying fair market value or losing the player altogether. Regardless of passing stats, Eli was absolutely their franchise QB. That’s not even debatable. They paid him fair market value for a franchise QB, no more, no less. They paid him more than any other football player ever, including every other “franchise QB” in the NFL. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774/43 "2019-11-01T20:56:08Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > This necessarily implies that the Giants would have won 2 Super Bowls had they not traded up/drafted/signed Eli and instead spun the cheap QB wheel of fun and hoped for the best. It’s quite the trope. > > The entire NFL, scouts, coaches, GMs, owners, most serious analysts, have agreed upon the idea that finding a competent QB is hard, that paying a good-to-great QB the market rate makes sense, and that gambling with unknown quantities at the most important position in the sport is foolhardy. Yet **Hamlet** has it all figured out, everyone should fire their QB, draft Gardner Minshew and invest that savings in defense. Ta da! You’re really racking up the “Frequent misrepresentations of people’s statements” miles this thread. Maybe you can earn a free trip to Madeupsville. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774/44 "2019-11-01T21:02:17Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > They were correct. They were able to win a championship with him. Just as the Ravens were able to with Flacco and Trent Dilfer before him. Just as the Eagles were able to with Nick Foles. Etc. Etc. “A” championship? TWO championships. Don’t lump him in with the one-hit wonders like Flacco, Dilfer, Foles, and Rodgers. > [@Hamlet](#): > > Ummmmm. OK? I kinda assume all fans want their team to win championships, but hey, you do you. > > […] > > Interesting take. > [@Hamlet](#): > > […] but, hey, as I said, you do you. > [@](#): > > How about you pull the reins on the “dishonest” bullshit? If you can’t have a discussion without that kind of namecalling, maybe you should take a break. I’ve merely been matching your tone. > [@](#): > > They paid him more than any other football player ever, including every other “franchise QB” in the NFL. Is Aaron Rodgers wildly overpaid because his career doesn’t hold a candle to Tom Brady? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774/45 "2019-11-01T21:18:17Z")
Perhaps you’d rather argue about the tone and process instead of the merits…that’s the new normal these days I suppose. Setting aside Ellis’ comments, let me recap. You said quite plainly that the Giants made a mistake when they made Eli the highest paid player in the NFL. Now it’s unclear which deal you’re referring to, but both his 2010 and 2015 contracts were massive. The second Super Bowl happened after the 2010 deal. I’m not going to dig up the history here, but I think it would be consistent with your normal arguments that they made a mistake when the traded up from #3 to #1 in exchange for two 1sts, a 3rd and a 5th to get him. So I’m lumping that first Super Bowl into the argument. Now if you want to accuse me of mis-characterizing your statements, please be specific about which of the above assumptions you find dishonest. Now, from there I’m inferring that if the Giants “made a mistake” then for those 2 Super Bowl runs they would necessarily need a different QB unless your argument is that Eli (or the Chargers) could have been persuaded to take a fraction of those deals to end up in the same place. So, if the Giants should have done something, anything, else at QB what would they have done? Since the Super Bowl wins by your own words “do not change that fact”, I’m taking that to mean that the Giants would have won with any replacement level QB. That is a pretty long limb for you to stand on. But, I suppose I’m just throwing around ad hominems. It couldn’t be that you have a irrational bias here. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774/46 "2019-11-01T21:31:48Z")
49ers lost LB Kwon Alexander for the season with a torn pectoral muscle. That really sucks. His speed, recognition, and coverage skills allowed both the secondary and the D-line to play more aggressively. His absence could force a totally different defensive philosophy, or rookie Dre Greenlaw could be next man up. He’s looked pretty good in preseason and spelling Alexander, and he got his first sack last night. It will help in the next few weeks, as our schedule gets tough, key players will be returning from earlier injuries (Staley, McGlinchey, Juszczyk, Witherspoon) ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774/47 "2019-11-01T21:33:57Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > “A” championship? TWO championships. Don’t lump him in with the one-hit wonders like Flacco, Dilfer, Foles, and Rodgers. Again, wins and championship (or championshipS) are a horrible way to judge QB’s. The fact you put Flacco, Dilfer and Rodgers in the same group merely emphasizes that. > [@Ellis Dee](#): > > I’ve merely been matching your tone. There is a world of difference between saying someone’s opinion is wrong and saying someone is dishonest. If you’re getting angry enough to call me dishonest over an opinion on football, maybe you should have a lie down. > [@Ellis Dee](#): > > Is Aaron Rodgers wildly overpaid because his career doesn’t hold a candle to Tom Brady? Why or why not? Nope. As I said before, you break the bank for elite. Aaron Rodgers is elite. Eli Manning is not. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774/48 "2019-11-01T21:53:27Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Setting aside Ellis’ comments, let me recap. Nah. I don’t think so. > [@Omni](#): > > Since the Super Bowl wins by your own words “do not change that fact”, I’m taking that to mean that the Giants would have won with any replacement level QB. Maybe, maybe not, but how the hell do we debate that? But I’ll play along, I guess. If they had Nick Foles as he played in the playoffs with the Eagles, hell yeah. If they had Joe Flacco as he played in his playoff run, absolutely they would have. If they had Jay Cutler from games 2-4 in 2009, sure, they would have. Those are the fair comps. Guys who played very well (and caught a few breaks) for short periods of time, but otherwise were pedestrian the rest of their careers. > [@Omni](#): > > It couldn’t be that you have a irrational bias here. I’m curious. What do you think my “irrational bias” is? That I hate mediocre QB play? ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774/49 "2019-11-01T21:53:40Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > There is a world of difference between saying someone’s opinion is wrong and saying someone is dishonest. Pot, meet kettle. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774/50 "2019-11-01T22:04:12Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’m curious. What do you think my “irrational bias” is? That I hate mediocre QB play? That any QB who isn’t Rodgers is stealing paychecks. You have the best QB in football, or at least did for a long time maybe it’s Mahomes now. That’s your benchmark for every QB salary. Therefore any QB who signs a contract within 85% of Rodgers’ annual pay without the requisite stats and record is horribly overpaid and those teams are idiots. Additionally, since you landed Rodgers in a once in a lifetime set of circumstances with the 24th overall pick, you think any team who does anything but sit pat on draft day is also an idiot. But like you said, just an ad hominem. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774/51 "2019-11-01T22:13:05Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > That any QB who isn’t Rodgers is stealing paychecks. How weird. You ascribe to me a viewpoint that I don’t have. It’s like deja vu. For the 45th time. > [@Omni](#): > > You have the best QB in football, or at least did for a long time maybe it’s Mahomes now. That’s your benchmark for every QB salary. Therefore any QB who signs a contract within 85% of Rodgers’ annual pay without the requisite stats and record is horribly overpaid and those teams are idiots. Additionally, since you landed Rodgers in a once in a lifetime set of circumstances with the 24th overall pick, you think any team who does anything but sit pat on draft day is also an idiot. There it is again. > [@Omni](#): > > But like you said, just an ad hominem. Ad hominems are when you don’t deal with an argument, but rather just insult a person. Like when you said since I was a Packer fan, I was in my ivory tower and how no idea about QBing in the NFL. What you’re doing now isn’t an ad hominem. The technical term for what you’re doing now is “making shit up about someone else’s opinion”. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774/52 "2019-11-01T22:22:45Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Here’s a question, a bit of a tangent but I think a somewhat relevant philosophical question. Do you differentiate between making bad decisions and making mistakes? I’m honestly curious. > > I do draw a distinction. Let’s say you have a chance to trade for a great tight end, let’s say a generational talent is feuding with his team and wants out, and they want to get rid of a headache so they’re willing to trade him for less than his usual value. Plus they are struggling with cap space. > > You have plenty of cap space and want to upgrade your offense. So you set up a trade, giving one of your struggling rookie tight ends and a 3rd round pick in return for a 5th round pick and this great tight end. By the numbers you made a great deal; you can afford him, you didn’t give up a player that’s helping you, your draft pick options aren’t that much worse and you can upgrade your offense immediately. Plus your QB played with him in college and they have a great rapport. > > In the middle of his first game with you he suffers a horrible back injury from a collision while blocking on a run play and is carted off the field. Damage is so severe he can never play again. > > Meanwhile the rookie you traded continues to learn with his new team and in his second year has a breakout season, becoming a rising star. > > Did you make a mistake? Clearly you’d have been better not doing the trade because you end up much worse off. Was it the wrong decision? With all of the information you had at the time, not knowing what the future holds, it was the most sensible decision and seemed like a great deal. I wouldn’t call that a mistake or a wrong decision. Like you said, it was a good decision at the time. An unforeseen injury shouldn’t negate that it was the right decision at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774/53 "2019-11-01T22:34:07Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > How weird. You ascribe to me a viewpoint that I don’t have. It’s like deja vu. For the 45th time. > > There it is again. > > Ad hominems are when you don’t deal with an argument, but rather just insult a person. Like when you said since I was a Packer fan, I was in my ivory tower and how no idea about QBing in the NFL. What you’re doing now isn’t an ad hominem. The technical term for what you’re doing now is “making shit up about someone else’s opinion”. Okay…please illuminate me. Care to share the list of QB contracts which have been handed out in the last 2 or 3 years which weren’t, to your mind, horribly inflated? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774/54 "2019-11-01T23:00:15Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Okay…please illuminate me. Care to share the list of QB contracts which have been handed out in the last 2 or 3 years which weren’t, to your mind, horribly inflated? Brady. Brees. Brissett. Ryan. Stafford. Rodgers. Roethlisberger. Wilson is close, but I wouldn’t say it was horribly inflated. Cousins is a tough one, I was on the fence about it. See, isn’t it much better to simply ask a question than make up an opinion that someone else has? ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774/55 "2019-11-01T23:07:04Z")
So basically Hall of Famers, got it. Though Ryan is a bit of a weird choice there, and Brissett’s situation was more than a little atypical, we’ll see if he shows up for camp next year. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774/56 "2019-11-02T00:05:45Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > So basically Hall of Famers, got it. Stafford, Ryan, and Brissett should not be in the Hall of Fame. Wilson shouldn’t be there yet, either. Your point? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774/57 "2019-11-03T16:45:17Z")
I’m thinking I may have to slow my roll on my Minshewmania. He’s looking awfully pedestrian this morning and while he’s avoiding huge mistakes so far, he’s also looking like a rookie QB. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774/58 "2019-11-03T17:09:27Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > I hope this Thursday Night game puts to rest the idea that Jimmy G is mediocre. I’m not sure anyone thinks Jimmy is mediocre, just that he’s nothing special either. Watching Thursday’s game I was impressed by his poise, especially in third down situations, and he threw the ball downfield more than I had seen before (and it worked). He impressed me. The problem is that the Cards were clearly playing to stop the run, and they are a bad, bad defense, so it was hard to tell if he’s actually a very good QB. Still, he did what was asked/given to him and he did it well. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774/59 "2019-11-03T21:33:19Z")
Back to this week’s games, if that’s ok: Dolfins playing a dangerous game with their first-round pick, and are clearly if misguidedly relying on the Bengals winning a game at some point. In other words - holy shit! A Dolphins win! Tied now with the indomitable Jets and obviously starting their sneaking up on the Patriots thing. ---
**Author:** ![LoneRhino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lonerhino/32/1311_2.png) [@LoneRhino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LoneRhino)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774/60 "2019-11-03T22:45:10Z")
Does anybody know why NFL coaches are all wearing the same thing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9-from-outer-space/842774.md?page=4)