# NFL Week 9 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 3, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782 "2012-11-03T18:43:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Jman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jman/32/4416_2.png) [@Jman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jman)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782/61 "2012-11-05T16:07:03Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > True, but I’d be willing to bet not many, if any, of those other teams had leads in **all** of their losses and lost them and the game. If the Steelers hadn’t blown leads early this season, they’d be 8-0 instead of 5-3. All their losses were close, winnable games that they let slip away. Still an L. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782/62 "2012-11-05T16:28:15Z")
How did the Coyboys not even get thier D on the field and set for, not one, but TWO plays against teh Falcons? What was Rob Ryan doing? Buddy Ryan must have started spinning in his grave…and he isn’t even dead yet! ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782/63 "2012-11-05T17:33:19Z")
> [@Jman](#): > > If the Steelers hadn’t blown leads early this season, they’d be 8-0 instead of 5-3. All their losses were close, winnable games that they let slip away. Still an L. Yeah, but those are the _Steelers_. They deserve to lose! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782/64 "2012-11-05T17:58:35Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Anyway, in fairness, I didn’t see any notable bad calls against the Steelers (or the Giants) after that one sequence, and I was looking for them. The only questionable one was when they missed the spot on a Giants conversion (Cruz had the 1st then \*voluntarily \*ran back, but they still gave him forward progress). The corrected it on review, but the initial screw-up did cost Pittsburgh their last challenge. How about the helmet to helmet on a defenseless receiver flag that they picked up? It was Mike Wallace, IIRC, who caught the ball and was sitting on his butt, trying to get up when the Giants’ DB led with his helmet into Wallace’s helmet. If that’s not a defenseless receiver, what is? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782/65 "2012-11-05T18:03:44Z")
He was trying to get up so he could _keep running_. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782/66 "2012-11-05T18:15:38Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > If that’s not a defenseless receiver, what is? If the receiver is concentrating on the catch itself and can’t observe or defend himself from an oncoming hit that’s one thing. However, in the play you mention he’d already caught it, looked to see where to run to and was actively trying to get to his feet so he could knock out more yardage when he was hit. I think the ‘defenseless’ application had passed and a further effort to stop him was warranted. It was though a helmet to helmet hit. While the defender carried through with his shoulder pad and body, replay showed it was his helmet that made first contact with the receiver’s helmet. That was excessive. So all in all I saw it as not late but likely illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782/67 "2012-11-05T18:34:53Z")
> [@RNATB](#): > > was trying to get up so he could keep running. First, he had never started running, so he couldn’t be said to “keep running.” Check the rules (see below). Second, “he was trying to get up so he could keep running” is not an exclusion to the rules regarding helmet to helmet of a defenseless player. > [@lieu](#): > > If the receiver is concentrating on the catch itself and can’t observe or defend himself from an oncoming hit that’s one thing. However, in the play you mention he’d already caught it, looked to see where to run to and was actively trying to get to his feet so he could knock out more yardage when he was hit. I think the ‘defenseless’ application had passed and a further effort to stop him was warranted. Not according to the rules. > [@lieu](#): > > It was though a helmet to helmet hit. While the defender carried through with his shoulder pad and body, replay showed it was his helmet that made first contact with the receiver’s helmet. That was excessive. So all in all I saw it as not late but likely illegal. The issue was never that it was late. It was that it was helmet-to-helmet on a defenselss player. Here’s the relevant rules: > **[NFL Football Operations | NFL Football Operations](https://operations.nfl.com)** > > Take a look behind the scenes to see what NFL Football Operations is doing to ensure the integrity, improve upon the safety and enhance the fan experience of the game. > [@](#): > > Article 7: Players in a Defenseless Posture. It is a foul if a player initiates unnecessary contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture. > (a) Players in a defenseless posture are: > […] > (2) A receiver attempting to catch a pass; or who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a runner. If the receiver/runner is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending > contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player; > […] > (5) A player on the ground; > […] > > (b) Prohibited contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture is: > (1) Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless player by encircling or grasping him; or > > (2) Lowering the head and making forcible contact with the top/crown or forehead/”hairline” parts of the helmet against any part of the defenseless player’s body; or > > (3) Illegally launching into a defenseless opponent. It is an illegal launch if a player (1) leaves both feet prior to contact to spring forward and upward into his opponent, and (2) uses any part of his helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/”hairline” parts) to initiate forcible contact against any part of his opponent’s body. Note: This does not apply to contact against a runner, unless the runner is still considered to be a defenseless player, as defined in Article 7 above. The play in question involved Wallace catching the ball by going to the ground. He clearly meets the criteria by being “on the ground” and by not having “clearly become a runner.” Since one arm was holding the ball and the other was behind him in the process of trying to get up, he also was defenseless by rule due to his being incapable of warding off or avoiding the contact. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782/68 "2012-11-05T18:48:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > He was trying to get up so he could _keep running_. That’s how I saw it too. Of he had been sitting there and not moving then OK, you give the guy a good shove to knock him on his ass, but if he’s in the act of getting up you hit him. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782/69 "2012-11-05T18:49:41Z")
I’ll add that when I saw the repay I did say one thing **HtB** pointed out - the helmet to helmet contact was not at all necessary and could easily be called. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782/70 "2012-11-05T18:53:10Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > That’s how I saw it too. Of he had been sitting there and not moving then OK, you give the guy a good shove to knock him on his ass, but if he’s in the act of getting up you hit him. Yep, as long as it doesn’t involve "Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless player by encircling or grasping him; or (2) Lowering the head and making forcible contact with the top/crown or forehead/”hairline” parts of the helmet against any part of the defenseless player’s body;" ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782/71 "2012-11-05T18:59:29Z")
How else was he supposed to hit him? Go watch the video. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782/72 "2012-11-05T19:03:57Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > How else was he supposed to hit him? Go watch the video. 😕 Um, in any way that doesn’t involve hitting him in the helmet. Really, at that point all he had to do was push him. As he was on his ass, he would have been down by contact. Can you link to the video? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782/73 "2012-11-05T19:24:05Z")
Not from work. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782/74 "2012-11-05T20:16:07Z")
The Falcons are 8-0, undefeated, the only undefeated team in pro football. I don’t know what to say. I’d be tempted to gloat, but historically, that has not been a good idea for Atlanta sports fans … ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782/75 "2012-11-05T20:37:14Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > How about the helmet to helmet on a defenseless receiver flag that they picked up? It was Mike Wallace, IIRC, who caught the ball and was sitting on his butt, trying to get up when the Giants’ DB led with his helmet into Wallace’s helmet. If that’s not a defenseless receiver, what is? Don’t have much to add to what’s already been posted, but since the question was originally directed at me I’ll just say that, at the time, I thought it was borderline: correctly not-called as a late hit (as Wallace was trying to get up), but one of those helmet-to-helmet deals that either will or will not be made depending on the official, or his angle on the play, or his whim. Can’t find the video online after one pass, so I won’t comment on whether or to what degree Wallace did or did not qualify as a defenseless player. I guess I will point out, though, there are simply a ton of technically illegal HtH hits that the refs never consider flagging for one reason or another – for better or worse it’s very much a judgment call a lot of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782/76 "2012-11-05T21:20:09Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Don’t have much to add to what’s already been posted, but since the question was originally directed at me I’ll just say that, at the time, I thought it was borderline: correctly not-called as a late hit (as Wallace was trying to get up), but one of those helmet-to-helmet deals that either will or will not be made depending on the official, or his angle on the play, or his whim. Can’t find the video online after one pass, so I won’t comment on whether or to what degree Wallace did or did not qualify as a defenseless player. I guess I will point out, though, there are simply a ton of technically illegal HtH hits that the refs never consider flagging for one reason or another – for better or worse it’s very much a judgment call a lot of the time. That’s fair enough, and I don’t dispute any of it. My problem comes from the fact that they threw a flag, and then picked it up. Someone saw it correctly, and was talked out of it. In the context of all the other truly indisputably shitty calls, it fit a pattern. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782/77 "2012-11-05T21:39:12Z")
OMG!!! Did you see Troy on the sidelines? He is sooooooooo CUTE! I \<3 his hair! I know he’s hurt, but do you think he can dance? My mom says I can stay out after midnight for the winter dance, and I would TOTALLY go to third base with him!!! \<3!! What? You mean this isn’t the teenage girl Steeler fan thread? Coulda fooled me. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782/78 "2012-11-05T22:17:40Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > The Falcons are 8-0, undefeated, the only undefeated team in pro football. I don’t know what to say. I’d be tempted to gloat, but historically, that has not been a good idea for Atlanta sports fans … I’ll be more inclined to gloat after winning a couple playoff games. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782/79 "2012-11-05T23:53:20Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > What? You mean this isn’t the teenage girl Steeler fan thread? Coulda fooled me. Speaking of teenage girls, how about that Giants run D? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782/80 "2012-11-05T23:55:47Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > I’ll be more inclined to gloat after winning a couple playoff games. It’s Atlanta. Maybe change it to winning A playoff game. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-week-9/639782.md?page=5)