# NHL: February 2011 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 3, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020 "2011-02-03T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020/82 "2011-02-15T04:46:02Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > Things have got to change, but I don’t think they will based on this week’s events alone. Yeah. Get rid of the instigator. You can blame the goons, but it’s the Matt Cookes and the Patrick Kaletas and the Jordan Tootoos of the league causing this crap. The heavyweights police the ice. ---
**Author:** ![gregorio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@gregorio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gregorio)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020/83 "2011-02-15T05:20:01Z")
Heh. Who are the Flames plaing tonight? The Avs or the Nords? Wow, nine goals so far, eight for the Flames. ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020/84 "2011-02-15T13:01:19Z")
> [@antonio107](#): > > I wanted to see Mike Fisher’s debut as a Predator, so I caught this game. Forsberg’s skating like an old woman out there. That foot never healed right. At least Brett Favre could wrap his bum ankles in a plastic boot…that does little for someone skating, sadly for him. The foot is kind of what I figured, but I guess I expected that it was such a known issue that both he and the Avalanche would have made sure it was okay before letting it get this far. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020/85 "2011-02-15T16:34:46Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > I think I’ll just go about my business of enjoying this thread instead of dropping the gloves with you. 🙂 Hey pretty boy, what’ll it take to make you fight back? ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020/86 "2011-02-15T18:59:57Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I for one don’t think he’s serious about saying “I don’t want to be a part of it” – he’s too far invested in this city and the Pens themselves. I think it was more of him expressing his outrage and frustration at the way the league handles this kind of thing. (And let’s face it – Bettman’s a horse’s ass.) It could also be that he HAS said this kind of thing before behind closed doors, (I’m sure he has!) but this was kind of the final straw. > But Mario is known around here as a real class-act, and while it may just be my bias showing, I don’t find him to be a hypocrite. Hockey’s a tough sport, and players sometimes cross the line. But this time the line was completely erased. > (And while I’m a Matt Cooke fan, I do think the guy needs to chill. _Off the ice_, Cookie’s known to be a stand-up guy, but he’s really gone overboard) That’s just it - no one actually believes he’s serious, so it comes across as a spoiled brat’s temper tantrum. And it seems that he isn’t really involved “behind closed doors” at the league level - I’ve read a few articles mentioning that Lemieux doesn’t even go to a lot of the owners/governors meetings. He isn’t involved beyond his own team, and his own interests, and complaining about this one fight-filled game but completely ignoring other recent ones or other “travesties” in hockey (some of the worst ones linked to his own team) in the past few years just makes it worse. I agree with the message that something needs to change. I agree with Lemieux that the state of the league when it comes to discipline is disgraceful right now, and that Bettman and Campbell are incompetent assholes. However, I think Lemieux was an idiot for stating it in the way he did, particularly so given which team he owns and which players he employs. How can it _not_ come across as hypocritical? It ought to be interesting to see whether he continues to take this stance when more events occur, or if this is the final word he has to say on the matter. Calling for gloves to be dropped: I now picture **Hentor** as Dan Carcillo. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020/87 "2011-02-15T19:42:53Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > Calling for gloves to be dropped: I now picture **Hentor** as Dan Carcillo. If you’re going to go to the realm of Flyers goons, please make me Scott Hartnell. In for a penny, in for a finger bite, I say. Folks like you keep referring to the Islanders game as a “fight filled game” and suggesting that Lemieux was complaining about lots of fighting or lots of rough hits. You remain completely ignorant of the matter. Lemieux wasn’t complaining about fighting or rough hits. Punching people in the back of the head is qualitatively different than fighting. Taunting is not fighting. If you continue to fail to comprehend these key distinctions, you will continue to be ignorant on the matter. If you want to be ignorant on the matter, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020/88 "2011-02-15T20:22:53Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Folks like you keep referring to the Islanders game as a “fight filled game” and suggesting that Lemieux was complaining about lots of fighting or lots of rough hits. No one here has referred to the game that way or accused Lemieux of that at all. The crux of the disagreement with Lemieux’s statement is that he’s complaining about the League’s missing an opportunity to properly address the issue of dirty hits with harsher penalties only after it’s his team that’s been victimized by them, even though he employs one of the dirtiest players in the entire League. He’s had plenty of chances to speak up, but only chooses now, when it’s his team laying on the ice. > [@](#): > > Punching people in the back of the head is qualitatively different than fighting. [Indeed](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wqR17KrLKw&feature=player_embedded#at=21). [So is boarding](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv0cOcJXFv4). Where was Mario’s outrage then? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020/89 "2011-02-15T20:43:28Z")
> [@soulmurk](#): > > No one here has referred to the game that way or accused Lemieux of that at all. > [@mnemosyne](#): > > …and complaining about this one **fight-filled game** Oopsies, I guess. > [@](#): > > The crux of the disagreement with Lemieux’s statement is that he’s complaining about the League’s missing an opportunity to properly address the issue of dirty hits with harsher penalties only after it’s his team that’s been victimized by them, even though he employs one of the dirtiest players in the entire League. He’s not complaining about dirty hits! Jesus, this is like talking to a brick. **If you refuse to comprehend the difference, you will continue to be ignorant of the matter.** ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020/90 "2011-02-15T21:04:31Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Oopsies, I guess. And so the misrepresentation and straw men have begun. Wall, meet my head. Was it not a fight-filled game? Were there not a lot of fights? :checks the [boxscore](http://www.nhl.com/ice/boxscore.htm?id=2010020823): By my quick count there were 13 fighting penalties assessed. That qualifies as “fight-filled” by anyone’s definition. Oh right, you’re insinuating that referring to it as “a fight-filled game” diminishes that there was also a lot of non-fighting shenanigans going on: bullshit. Read the whole quote you butchered to remove the context and wrap your head around the fact that **mnemosyne** agrees with Lemieux’s points. > [@](#): > > He’s not complaining about dirty hits! Jesus, this is like talking to a brick. **If you refuse to comprehend the difference, you will continue to be ignorant of the matter.** He said: > [@Originally spoken by Hypocritical Whinerpants Mario Lemieux](#): > > "The NHL had a chance to send a clear and strong message that **those kinds of actions** are unacceptable and embarrassing to the sport. It failed. > > We, as a league, must do a better job of protecting the integrity of the game and the **safety of our players**. We must make it clear that **those kinds of actions** will not be tolerated and will be met with meaningful disciplinary action." Emphasis mine. If you refuse to comprehend that there is no fundamental difference between what Martin and Gillies did and what Cooke or Carter did or what Bertuzzi and Pronger did, then **you** will continue to be ignorant of the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020/91 "2011-02-15T21:31:39Z")
The Pens broke Erik Cole’s neck on a hit from behind in 06. Luckily he was not paralyzed and can play now. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020/92 "2011-02-15T21:49:31Z")
**soulmark** , last time I recall, Cooke didn’t continue pummeling Savard while he was on the ground, and heckeling him. He seemed pretty shaken up about the whole thing, actually. (I’m not defending his actions, but your constant harping on, “BUT WHAT ABOUT MATT COOKE!!!” is getting really annoying) ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020/93 "2011-02-15T22:05:08Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > If you’re going to go to the realm of Flyers goons, please make me Scott Hartnell. In for a penny, in for a finger bite, I say. Sorry, I just like the mental image of Carcillo taunting someone by lisping “pretty boy” through what’s left of his teeth. It just cracks me up. > [@](#): > > Folks like you keep referring to the Islanders game as a “fight filled game” and suggesting that Lemieux was complaining about lots of fighting or lots of rough hits. You remain completely ignorant of the matter. I had thought about going into a long-winded, detailed description of exactly what game I was referring to, complete with accurate play-by-play of every movement of every player including every action that may be deemed as taunting, illegal or violent just to be sure you know which game I was talking about, but figured it was unnecessary. Guess I was wrong. In case you hadn’t noticed, I generally bitch about the same things Lemieux was bitching about: bad calls, violent plays, ineffective discipline and the crap organization that is the NHL. The difference is I’m not doing it while looking away and cutting a paycheque for a player at the heart of some of the more recent and controversial examples of those very things. _He’s right about what he said._ He’s just not in a position to say it. ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020/94 "2011-02-15T22:13:13Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **soulmark** , last time I recall, Cooke didn’t continue pummeling Savard while he was on the ground, and heckeling him. He seemed pretty shaken up about the whole thing, actually. That doesn’t matter. It’s the fundamental issue at hand: a dirty hit with clear intent to injure. Breaking it down to different degrees of dirtiness is disingenuous. They’re all dirty hits and reprehensible actions and the League should take steps to remove them from the game entirely. > [@](#): > > (I’m not defending his actions, but your constant harping on, “BUT WHAT ABOUT MATT COOKE!!!” is getting really annoying) I’m not “harping” on about him; Matt Cooke is the centerpiece of what makes Mario Lemieux’s statements hypocritical, and so is absolutely part of the conversation. For what it’s worth, I think Pronger, Jarkko Ruutu and Bertuzzi, to name a few, shouldn’t even be allowed to play any longer, having long ago forfeited their privilege to play in this league with their actions, but that’s another discussion for another time. The issue at hand is whether Lemieux is being hypocritical for calling out the League for not properly handling dirty tactics and intent to injure while employing and remaining mum about the dirtiest player in the League, and so Matt Cooke is at the center of that discussion. ETA: And, I might add, your constant blind homerism defense of everything Pittsburgh is getting really annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020/95 "2011-02-15T22:59:21Z")
[Here’s a good take on Lemieux’s performance](http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/38375-THNcom-Blog-Mario-Lemieuxs-actions-will-speak-louder-than-words.html). Sadly it focuses more on Lemieux than on Matt Cooke, but personally I feel that’s slightly more relevant. Enjoy. And Hentor. If you want me to drop the gloves, answer my question and not what you perceive to be my argument. Calling me pretty boy will just get you a different kind of action.😉 What can I say? I’m a sucker for flattery. ---
**Author:** ![UTejas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UTejas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UTejas)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020/96 "2011-02-16T00:27:31Z")
> [@soulmurk](#): > > I’m not “harping” on about him; Matt Cooke is the centerpiece of what makes Mario Lemieux’s statements hypocritical, and so is absolutely part of the conversation. > > For what it’s worth, I think Pronger, Jarkko Ruutu and Bertuzzi, to name a few, shouldn’t even be allowed to play any longer, having long ago forfeited their privilege to play in this league with their actions, but that’s another discussion for another time. The issue at hand is whether Lemieux is being hypocritical for calling out the League for not properly handling dirty tactics and intent to injure while employing and remaining mum about the dirtiest player in the League, and so Matt Cooke is at the center of that discussion. May I ask then if, hypocrisy aside, you believe that Mario Lemieux is _wrong_ in his statement? Surely you do not think his statements are incorrect regardless of his hypocrisy? Then I will ask if Steve Yzerman should be prohibited from complaining about cheap hits to his players because he also employs Steve Downie? If Datsyuk or Zetterberg are concussed on a dirty hit, is Ken Holland a hypocrite for complaining about it while signing Todd Bertuzzi’s paychecks? Same thing goes for the employers of Sean Avery, Chris Neil, Steve Ott, Jordin Tootoo, or Chris Pronger? Similarly, after Trevor Gillies took 30 full strides and launched his elbow into a defenseless, non-puck-possessing player, should other GMs and owners have spoken up so as to cover their own asses in the event one of their players is on the receiving end of such a hit? What if Greg Sherman had called Gillies’ suspension inadequate on the same day that Phillipe Dupuis hit Olli Jokinen knee-to-knee? Matt Cooke is a frequently-dangerous, dirty player, but he is not talentless. He’s a strong source of secondary scoring and the Penguins’ best penalty killer after Jordan Staal. His offensive skill set fits perfectly into Dan Bylsma’s system, and the Penguins are unquestionably a weaker team without his presence in the lineup. He has more goals _this season_ than Trevor Gillies has in his entire _11-year professional career_. The Penguins employ Cooke for a reason and his dangerous play is detrimental to the team, not the reason for his continued employment. He deserves every bit of suspension he receives and more, but it is by far and away in the team’s best interest to keep him in line and on the ice. His reason for being on the team has nothing to do with his dirty play and, in fact, occurs despite his dirty play. Trevor Gillies contributes nothing to the Islanders and assuredly whoever plays instead of him will contribute more to the team. He was on the ice for a single reason: to cause injury. He had no other purpose. Even a fighter like Zenon Konopka, who is one of the most skilled faceoff men in the league, has an important role to that team. The Islanders, specifically Gillies and Martin, went into that game seeking only revenge and to cause injury. Matt Cooke has never done that. So, I disagree that Lemieux is a hypocrite. He was outspoken as a player against the clutch-and-grab system. He’s allowed to complain that a talentless player was put on the ice _specifically_ to cause injury on a non-hockey play while employing a talented player who plays dirty but still gets important minutes. If he is not allowed to complain about such a situation, then the league has no hope for eliminating head shots and dangerous plays because every team has someone who has crossed the line in the context of the game. It is in Lemieux’s best interest to force Cooke to play cleanly; a clean Cooke is a strong asset. A clean Gillies isn’t even playing in the ECHL. ---
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020/97 "2011-02-16T04:27:41Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **soulmark** , last time I recall, Cooke didn’t continue pummeling Savard while he was on the ground, and heckeling him. He seemed pretty shaken up about the whole thing, actually. > (I’m not defending his actions, but your constant harping on, “BUT WHAT ABOUT MATT COOKE!!!” is getting really annoying) Cooke is a real garbage player, though. He didn’t pummel a guy on the ground and heckle him, yes. Was this because he was a class act, or because the entire Boston Bruins bench would have massacred him? When we talk about other guys who have had cheap hits, they would at least fight. Sean Avery will fight the odd heavyweight. Bertuzzi and Sutton would at least fight. Aaron Downey at least fought Chris Neil after his hit on McAmmond. The fact is that Cooke is a dangerous agitator, who spot picks against other little pests like Steve Moore. You’d think being on the Canucks when Todd Bertuzzi’s crap went down would serve as a cautionary tale for him. I’m not condoning violence, but he’s bringing ill will on his own team. So a garbage team not in a playoff spot wants to hurt his team mates? Yeah, I can believe that. Expect even worse. There’s no such thing as too much harping on Cooke. He’s gonna get his, and real bad, one day. And he’ll have no one to blame but himself. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Nig2naN8NTs/maxresdefault.jpg "Don Cherry on Matt Cooke") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nig2naN8NTs) ---
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020/98 "2011-02-16T04:29:34Z")
> [@soulmurk](#): > > For what it’s worth, I think Pronger, **Jarkko Ruutu** and Bertuzzi, to name a few, shouldn’t even be allowed to play any longer, having long ago forfeited their privilege to play in this league with their actions, but that’s another discussion for another time. The issue at hand is whether Lemieux is being hypocritical for calling out the League for not properly handling dirty tactics and intent to injure while employing and remaining mum about the dirtiest player in the League, and so Matt Cooke is at the center of that discussion. While I have the homer goggles on, Ruutu’s not even in the same league as those other two guys. The worst he did was bite a washed up brawler’s thumb during a face wash. Jordin Tootoo or Aaron Downey…I would agree with you on that. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020/99 "2011-02-16T12:20:41Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > _He’s right about what he said._ He’s just not in a position to say it. This is ridiculous as **UTejas** made clear in a much better manner than I ever will be able to. All I’ll ask is that you tell me who is in such a position. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020/100 "2011-02-16T12:22:54Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > And Hentor. If you want me to drop the gloves, answer my question and not what you perceive to be my argument. Calling me pretty boy will just get you a different kind of action.😉 > > What can I say? I’m a sucker for flattery. Has it been so long that we’ve all forgotten the tagline from _Youngblood_? Truly a classic piece of cinema. Oh the state of the world these days. ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020/101 "2011-02-16T13:15:15Z")
> [@antonio107](#): > > While I have the homer goggles on, Ruutu’s not even in the same league as those other two guys. The worst he did was bite a washed up brawler’s thumb during a face wash. Jordin Tootoo or Aaron Downey…I would agree with you on that. You’re right, that’s my bad. For some reason I remembered Jarkko as the leg-stomper, not the leg-stompee. Replace Ruutu’s name with Chris Simon in my previous statement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nhl-february-2011/570020.md?page=6)