# Nice cafeteria. Be a shame of you can't use it. Remember DACA! **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 23, 2017, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143 "2017-12-23T14:40:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143/61 "2017-12-25T17:09:25Z")
What happens to them? Anybody got any follow-up? Are they welcome in their “native country”? How’s their Spanish? Do the actual residents of their “native country” regard them as “gringos”? How are things these days in Nicaragua, El Salvador, and Guatemala? After all those years of our paternal concern and affection, how we gently guided them from the paths of turmoil to the calm silence of graveyards? To send young people to a land where they are not welcome, amongst ruthless people ever alert for a new victim, is unspeakably cruel. Hell, when their street gangs infiltrate, they scare the shit out of our own home-grown thugs. They will be seen (or perhaps already are) as cash cows who probably know somebody in America who will pay a thousand dollars not to get a finger in the mail. Don’t want them to vote? OK, no problem, maybe just permanent status, all the rights and obligations of citizenship but that. Sure. Its a deal. Not proud of it, but at least it isn’t so ruthlessly cruel I need be ashamed of it. And may be blessed baby Jesus shut your mouth and open your heart, amen. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2017, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143/62 "2017-12-25T18:36:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What happens to them? Anybody got any follow-up? Are they welcome in their “native country”? How’s their Spanish? Do the actual residents of their “native country” regard them as “gringos”? There are some reports,[like this.](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/sep/06/undocumented-mexicans-raised-in-america-daca-dreamers) > [@](#): > > Then she met fellow returnees at a project that has grown to become the group Otros Dreams en Acción, Other Dreams in Action, where she now works full-time. > > Maggie Loredo > Loredo said that when Dreamers first arrive in Mexico from the US, they can find it especially difficult to navigate simple bureaucratic hurdles. That is why her group campaigns for legislation to make the return process easier, such as the Mexican national education body’s decision this year to recognize the GED, a US exam that is equivalent to a high school diploma. Previously, people with a GED had to start at the beginning of the Mexican equivalent to high school. > > “My plan now is to stay in Mexico,” Loredo said, “even though sometimes I want to live in the US. Right now, it’s really hard to live there – the stress, the environment against Latinos, and, well, everyone who is not white.” > … > > In her new country, where at 23 she now lives in the capital, Mexico City, she learned that her Spanish “was actually Spanglish” and was bullied by students who mocked her accent and called her “la gringa” – a sometimes derogatory term for Americans. > > The exam she needed to pass to continue her studies and become a neonatal nurse included Mexican history, which she barely knew, and was conducted in academic Spanish. And more, similar stories about people who we would have been better off keeping here. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143/63 "2017-12-25T18:47:03Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Most Republicans are doing what they believe is best for the citizens of this country too. I don’t see it. Because if they truly believe that accruing national debt in order to provide economic stimulus is the path to prosperity, then they let the entire country suffer through eight years of recession just to block the Democratic President from success. And if they don’t truly believ it, then the recently passed tax bill is nothing but a bold-faced heist of the Treasury. It’s like half the country has turned into my idiot uncle who relentlessly believes the Nigerian scammers. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143/64 "2017-12-25T18:57:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Most Republicans are doing what they believe is best for the citizens of this country too. If so, what their actions show they believe is best is to reflexively oppose anything the Democrats try to do. Do you really think the Republicans no longer have principles of their own that aren’t automatically in opposition? Do they really not define Democrats as the enemy of “the citizens of this country”? It’s no longer apparent that they can be given credit for independent thought and principle higher than simple obstruction and vandalism. Or that they, or you, mean “\*all \*citizens”. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2017, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143/65 "2017-12-25T19:11:10Z")
Dreamers won’t leave the country. They will just retreat to the shadows, living off others or working under the table. We are going to have to fire bilingual education teachers and replace them with unqualified permanent subs (because we can’t fill those slots without dreamers) and qualified teachers with college degrees will go scrub floors for cash while subs hand out worksheets to blank faced kids. This, somehow, if a fair and just situation and anyone objecting to it best remember that they are a supplicant and remember first and foremost that anything other than a polite request for a legislative solution is ungrateful attention whoring. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143/66 "2017-12-25T20:41:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No, it’s not, because that’s not the important part of the analogy: a place of relative power to them was engaging in an unjust action, so they stopped the folks from engaging in business as usual until the unjust action ended. True, in the Woolworth’s case, there was a little better aesthetic symmetry going on, but the fundamentals of the protest were the same there as here. > > Meanwhile, other protests in the civil rights movement essentially shut down cities. Do you think those were out of order? > > There seems to be an idea that civil disobedience is fine as long as it doesn’t inconvenience anyone, or at least as long as it’s not illegal. That’s not at all how civil disobedience works. Another important distinction is that it was not illegal for the folks to sit at that Woolworth’s counter in the first place. They weren’t breaking any law. They were protesting the business practices of a private company, and to the extent that business was interrupted, it was the decision of the company that made it so. As for protests that “essentially shut down cities”, that’s too vague a reference for me to say whether I agree or disagree. I’d need to see what specifically was done in specific instances. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2017, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143/67 "2017-12-25T21:14:28Z")
They were breaking the law. Segregation was legal and the protesters were trespassing. That’s why the police came with firehoses and dogs. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2017, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143/68 "2017-12-25T21:48:21Z")
The police did not break up the Woolworth’s protest with dogs and fire hoses. [http://americanhistory.si.edu/brown/history/6-legacy/freedom-struggle-2.html](http://americanhistory.si.edu/brown/history/6-legacy/freedom-struggle-2.html) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143/69 "2017-12-25T22:51:57Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > They were breaking the law. Segregation was legal and the protesters were trespassing. That’s why the police came with firehoses and dogs. The police used firehoses and dogs inside the Woolworth’s store? Are you sure??? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143/70 "2017-12-26T02:41:21Z")
Of course they didn’t let dogs into Woolworth’s, nothing racist about\* that!\* ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143/71 "2017-12-26T15:53:16Z")
The dogs and hoses were used on peaceful-but-technically-illegal protesters in Birmingham–not inside lunch counters, but to prevent protesters from getting to lunch counters. People were absolutely arrested for trespassing during sit-ins–including in [Greensboro](http://www.history.com/topics/black-history/the-greensboro-sit-in). There is a fundamental misunderstanding that the Civil Rights Movement was a matter of people protesting private policies and social customs. Segregation was enshrined in law and actively enforced by the State. Before desegregation, it wasn’t like black people walked an extra 2 miles to use a restroom because they didn’t want to be rude, or get yelled at. They walked an extra 2 miles to find a restroom they could use because they didn’t want to be arrested. Because it was a crime not to. [Thoreau](http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper2/thoreau/civil.html): > [@](#): > > Unjust laws exist: shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once? Men generally, under such a government as this, think that they ought to wait until they have persuaded the majority to alter them. They think that, if they should resist, the remedy would be worse than the evil. But it is the fault of the government itself that the remedy is worse than the evil. . . > > [If an injustice] is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law. Let your life be a counter-friction to stop the machine. What I have to do is to see, at any rate, that I do not lend myself to the wrong which I condemn. > > As for adopting the ways which the State has provided for remedying the evil, I know not of such ways. They take too much time, and a man’s life will be gone. I have other affairs to attend to. I came into this world, not chiefly to make this a good place to live in, but to live in it, be it good or bad. A man has not everything to do, but something; and because he cannot do everything, it is not necessary that he should do something wrong. Civil Disobedience has always been about radical, illegal interference. It aims to destabilize the machine to the point that the injustice must be addressed. And Thoreau is clear that it should be saved only for truly severe injustice: > [@](#): > > All machines have their friction; and possibly this does enough good to counterbalance the evil. At any rate, it is a great evil to make a stir about it. . . . . If the injustice is part of the necessary friction of the machine of government, let it go, let it go: perchance it will wear smooth- certainly the machine will wear out. If the injustice has a spring, or a pulley, or a rope, or a crank, exclusively for itself, then perhaps you may consider whether the remedy will not be worse than the evil. So I mean, if someone want to make the argument that situation --these 800K people who did nothing wrong, and came out of the shadows when they were assured it would be safe to do so—is “normal friction” and that sacrificing them is just acceptable friction, well, I disagree with that, but fine. But don’t say that shutting down a cafeteria is the wrong sort of thing for someone to do in pursuit of civil disobedience, that it isn’t what Thoreau or Ghandi or King would do–well, that’s just incorrect. It’s entirely in the tradition of civil disobedience. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143/72 "2017-12-26T17:18:14Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > The dogs and hoses were used on peaceful-but-technically-illegal protesters in Birmingham–not inside lunch counters, but to prevent protesters from getting to lunch counters. People were absolutely arrested for trespassing during sit-ins–including in [Greensboro](http://www.history.com/topics/black-history/the-greensboro-sit-in). People get “arrested” for all kinds of stuff. The test as to whether someone has done something illegal is whether they are tired and convicted. And note that your History Chanel cite says that “many of the protesters were arrested for trespassing, disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace” without noting how many were arrested for each. > [@](#): > > There is a fundamental misunderstanding that the Civil Rights Movement was a matter of people protesting private policies and social customs. I don’t have that misunderstanding. The lunch counter protests in Greensboro were about the policies of Woolworth’s, which that company changed without the need to change the law in NC. Birmingham was different, where [segregation of private businesses was required by law.](http://www.crmvet.org/info/seglaws.htm) Also, the Birmingham protests were huge, all-encompassing protests, aimed at that all encompassing law (not targeting one company to change its policies). Rosa Parks, otoh, was arrested and convicted of violating [the segregation law in Montgomery, AL.](http://www.archives.state.al.us/teacher/rights/lesson1/doc1.html) The difference between her actions and what is proposed by the protestors in the OP is that she didn’t shut down any businesses, preventing anyone from using it, and she especially didn’t shut down a business unrelated to the law she was protesting nor block legislators from entering their offices. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143/73 "2017-12-26T20:50:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So, you agree that Democrats are more compassionate than Republicans? I wouldn’t have expected you to actually say that. It’s easy to be compassionate with other peoples money. If I could tax everyone in my city $20 then give some of it to a food bank, is that compassion? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143/74 "2017-12-26T21:01:39Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > It’s easy to be compassionate with other peoples money. If I could tax everyone in my city $20 then give some of it to a food bank, is that compassion? If the alternative is people starving, then yes. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143/75 "2017-12-26T22:33:43Z")
Well, it isn’t other people’s money, its our money. From sea to shiny sea, the deed reads "We, the People: Ours. All of it. Not his, not hers, ours. Private property is an important thing but it is not the only thing, not even the main thing. And its to take care of our people. If they _aren’t_ our people, who’s people are they? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143/76 "2017-12-27T00:22:19Z")
Let’s see more of these tactics, then! Since they apparently represent the proud legacy of protest, and all. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143/77 "2017-12-27T00:45:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Saint Cad** : > > It’s easy to be compassionate with other peoples money. Apparently not. Trump is the poster child for Other People’s Money, and he seems to find it very hard indeed to be compassionate. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143/78 "2017-12-27T01:25:07Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Ok, so what if instead of saying, “Pass this bill or we will shut down your cafeteria!” the protesters said, “PLEASE pass this bill or we will shut down your cafeteria ONLY IF YOU AGREE THAT WE SHOULD!” > > Because as we all know, protesters who we don’t agree with are most effective when nobody notices what they are doing, and always mind their pleases and thank you‘s. Protesters we do agree with - say for example REAL Americans protesting liberal hypocrisy - ought to be afforded much more leeway, of course. I keep hearing this defense of inadvisable protest tactics. And it’s true that many protest movements used poor tactics but won anyway because of the justice of their cause. However, three other things are also true: 1. The cause was undoubtedly just. The idea that people who came here illegally have a RIGHT to stay, is not at all clear cut. 2. Not all such movements are successful, and how much they piss the people off who they need to support them matters. Backlash is real, and historically immigrant rights demonstrations have been a primary example of how not to advocate. Which is why they haven’t done so well. 3. Successful protest movements note public response and are flexible about changing tactics to appeal to more people. And not just overall public opinion, but simply numbers of dedicated supporters. It’s better to have a million people marching peacefully for something than 5000 making asses of themselves. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143/79 "2017-12-27T01:27:51Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Dreamers won’t leave the country. They will just retreat to the shadows, living off others or working under the table. We are going to have to fire bilingual education teachers and replace them with unqualified permanent subs (because we can’t fill those slots without dreamers) and qualified teachers with college degrees will go scrub floors for cash while subs hand out worksheets to blank faced kids. > > This, somehow, if a fair and just situation and anyone objecting to it best remember that they are a supplicant and remember first and foremost that anything other than a polite request for a legislative solution is ungrateful attention whoring. They don’t actually have a right to be here, much less participate in our policymaking. They can’t vote. So yes, they can POLITELY ask voters to consider supporting their desire to stay here. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143/80 "2017-12-27T01:35:18Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I keep hearing this defense of inadvisable protest tactics. And it’s true that many protest movements used poor tactics but won anyway because of the justice of their cause. However, three other things are also true: > > 1. The cause was undoubtedly just. **The idea that people who came here illegally have a RIGHT to stay,** is not at all clear cut. Since this is specifically about children who were brought here when they were too young to make a choice and were forced to come here by their parents,I can’t think of a good reason they shouldn’t be allowed to stay. As has been brought up before, in many cases, they’re _culturally_ American. They want to stay here despite the fact that (currently) they will never be allowed American citizenship. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-cafeteria-be-a-shame-of-you-cant-use-it-remember-daca/805143.md?page=5)