# "Nice guy" and "bad guy" teams in sports **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 3, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429 "2013-05-03T17:14:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429/21 "2013-05-09T21:43:28Z")
> [@](#): > > As for Enos Slaughter - he deliberately spiked Jackie Robinson for no other reason than Robinson’s color. Yes, racism was common at the time, but Slaughter was the only major league ballplayer who did anything like this. Well, gosh, that just isn’t true at all. Robinson was spiked quite a few times in 1947. Slaughter’s is the most memorable, because it caused the worst cut, but he absolutely was not the only player to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429/22 "2013-05-09T22:48:54Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Agreed that Greene, despite his nickname, never had a particular reputation as a dirty or nasty player, AFAIK. > > In addition to the three you mention (deserving, all), I’ll add a few: > > Ndomukong Suh. Cheap-shot artist, dirty player. > > Most of the Packers’ defense in the mid 1980s, when Forrest Gregg was coach (and I say this as a Packer fan). Ken Stills and Charles Martin tried to cripple Matt Suhey and Jim McMahon, respectively. Mossy Cade was convicted of sexually assaulting a female relative. Chuck Cecil had a reputation as a headhunter as a player, and hasn’t reformed much as a coach ([see this clip, at around 1:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mOyvVzCwQE)). Hey, I remember those Packer teams. I’m a Buccaneers fan so I saw a lot of those guys. Of course, they didn’t bother too much head hunting against us. Hard to find a player good enough to be worth taking out of the game. On the good guy side I want to nominate Richard “Batman” Wood who played linebacker for the Bucs in the late 70’s early 80’s. He was a Buccaneer star but not an NFL star if you know what I mean. Anyway, he took tae kwon do at the same dojo my brother did so I ran into him a lot and he was a fantastic person. You could see he really respected the sport and he didn’t act like a star or anything and showed deference to those who outranked him including my brother who was only a kid. He was approachable and funny as well. Really a nice guy. Now, he’s a high school football coach which is a great place for him I think. I understand he eventually got his black belt as well. Now, if you’re going to mention dirty players how can you leave off your own Najeh Davenport? Can’t get much dirtier than that. 😉 Oh, and your link is currently unavailable according to youtube. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429/23 "2013-05-09T23:01:32Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > Hey, I remember those Packer teams. I’m a Buccaneers fan so I saw a lot of those guys. Of course, they didn’t bother too much head hunting against us. Hard to find a player good enough to be worth taking out of the game. I was one of the few who made it to the Bucs / Packers [“Snow Bowl”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_Bowl_%281985%29) game in 1985 (my parents lived, and still live, only a few miles from Lambeau). Yeah, you had James Wilder, and then… 😛 > [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > On the good guy side I want to nominate Richard “Batman” Wood who played linebacker for the Bucs in the late 70’s early 80’s. He was a Buccaneer star but not an NFL star if you know what I mean. I definitely remember him. 🙂 He drew Batman logos on all of his pads – no one would be able to get away with that in today’s NFL. > [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > Now, if you’re going to mention dirty players how can you leave off your own Najeh Davenport? Can’t get much dirtier than that. 😉 The “Dump Truck”? Heh. Not dirty so much as gross and stupid. 😃 (For the benefit of the uninformed, when Davenport was in college, he broke into a co-ed’s dorm room, and defecated in her laundry basket.) > [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > Oh, and your link is currently unavailable according to youtube. Weird; it was up this morning. It had Cecil (who was, at that point, defensive coordinator for the Titans) flipping the officials a bird for repeated penalties against his defense. Still photo of the moment is [here](http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/455123/1x0c.jpg) (probably NSFW, since it **is** an obscene gesture). ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429/24 "2013-05-09T23:13:10Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > I was one of the few who made it to the Bucs / Packers [“Snow Bowl”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_Bowl_%281985%29) game in 1985 (my parents lived, and still live, only a few miles from Lambeau). Yeah, you had James Wilder, and then… 😛 My great aunt was there too. She was a senior citizen but a die hard Bucs fan who could rival the best of them. She won the tickets from a radio station in Tampa. She was so happy and she’d always talk about that trip. Good times. Hey, in all fairness, we did have a dude named Lee Roy Something or Other that you might remember but no sane person would try to hurt him. From all accounts though, another nice guy. His nickname was after all “The Gentle Giant.” ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429/25 "2013-05-10T13:49:16Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Agreed that Greene, despite his nickname, never had a particular reputation as a dirty or nasty player, AFAIK. Actually, he was seen as a pretty nasty guy. This is from [a 1975 SI profile](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1090269/index.htm): > [@](#): > > He also had to work off the frustration, during his first three years with the Steelers, of playing on losing teams. “That’s bound to make you ugly,” he says. Greene’s nickname derives from that of his college team, the Mean Green (thought up, incidentally, by a lady named Sidney Sue), but in the pros Greene has done a number of things to deserve it. In his rookie year he was ejected from two games. Once he threw his helmet so hard at a goalpost that pieces of helmet went flying. Another time, after an opposing guard had hit him a good clean block, he seized the offender with one hand on each shoulder pad and kicked him flush between the legs. One day he was glaringly outplaying a good Cincinnati guard named Pat Matson, a 245-pound ball of muscle, until at last Matson developed a bad leg and began limping off the field. Greene ran over and grabbed him before he reached the sideline and tried to coax him back into play, crying, “Come on, I want you out here.” “I’ll never forget the look on Matson’s face,” says Steeler Defensive Captain Andy Russell. There is even a story that once after being thrown out of a game Greene returned to the bench in such a rage that he opened up the equipment manager’s tool chest and pulled out a screwdriver. Whatever he intended doing, he had second thoughts and threw it down. > > Then there was the time he spit on Butkus. The Bears were humiliating the Steelers. Butkus was blitzing at will, taking long running starts and smashing into the Steeler center just as he snapped the ball, and Greene couldn’t stand it any longer. The Steeler offense was on the field. Greene had no business out there, but when Butkus passed within 10 feet of the Steeler bench, Greene bolted out at him, yelling challenges, and drew back and spit full in Butkus’s face. > > “Butkus didn’t look intimidated,” says Russell, "but there was Greene obviously wanting to fight him, and fully capable of it, and you could see Butkus thinking, ‘This wouldn’t be the intelligent thing to do.’ " So Butkus turned and walked back into the security of the carnage on the field. When Russell ran into Butkus in the off-season and asked him how he could let a guy spit in his face without retaliating, Butkus said, “I was too busy making All-Pro.” Greene—who was himself named All-Pro for the fourth time, and NFL Defensive Player of the Year for the second time, last season—is perhaps the only man alive who could make Butkus come off sounding rather prim. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429/26 "2013-05-11T17:35:53Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > The posters who have said, for example, that Cobb, Anson and Slaughter were racists seem to want us to think that all of the other players at those times were saints with perfect racial tolerance, which we all know damn well isn’t so. There were many players and managers then who had intolerant attitudes Okay, for a more recent example, how about [John Rocker](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_rocker#Controversial_statements)? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429/27 "2013-05-11T19:18:04Z")
I’ll go with the obvious: Jerry Sandusky. 😉 Hockey: Sawchuk was a goalie. He also had an extremely sad life, suffering from untreated depression, alcoholism and severe injuries. His old brother, whom Sawchuk idolized, died of a heart attack at 17. Bad guys - Todd Bertuzzi, Claude Lemieux, Sean Avery, Marty McSorley, Ulf Samuelsson, Mike Milbury (he once beat up a kid at his son’s hockey game!), Bobby Clarke, Tom Barrasso (he’s known as “Barrasshole” around here). And while I love the guy, Matt Cooke (although he has changed his game) Patrick Roy’s supposed to be a real prick off the ice. Harold Ballard pretty much ran the Maple Leafs into the ground. And of course who could forget: Gary Bettman. Alan Eagleson screwed over a lot of people – especially Bobby Orr. Nice guys - Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Orr, Stan Mikita, Ron Francis, Coach “Badger” Bob Johnson, Sidney Crosby, Jarome Iginla, Lanny McDonald. Funny about Gordie Howe – one of the meanest players ever, but the nicest guy you’d ever want to meet. Go figure. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I’m not sure an endorsement from Ty Cobb really puts you in line for sainthood. He had a good rep though around here in Pittsburgh. People loved the guy. (Wagner, that is, not Cobb) No mention of the ultimate good guy – Roberto Clemente? He died in a plane crash delivering supplies to earthquake victims, for crissakes! Football: Good guys - Art Rooney Sr, aka “The Chief”. EVERYONE loved the guy. My dad knew him from working on the North Side and said he was one of the nicest guys you’d ever want to meet. Troy Polamalu. Bad guys: Ben Roethlisberger. Family members of mine have had run ins with the guy – all of them said he was a complete douchebag. Ray Lewis. (Hello, he killed a guy!) Adam “Pacman” Jones. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429/28 "2013-05-13T14:38:54Z")
I’ve already given my spiel about how we can’t really KNOW who’s a good guy… but I admit, I’d be very sad if I found out that Ron Guidry (my favorite Yankee of all time) wasn’t a good guy. He always SEEMED to be one. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429/29 "2013-05-15T13:35:50Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Honus Wagner, SS. “As sweet-natured as a man could be,” Ty Cobb said of him. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I’m not sure an endorsement from Ty Cobb really puts you in line for sainthood. Yeah, that’s right up there with Mike Tyson calling you ‘sane and well-adjusted’, Muhammed Ali saying you’re ‘soft-spoken’ or LeBron James saying you undervalue your talents. Not really what you call a high bar. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429/30 "2013-05-15T18:18:28Z")
Ty Cobb might not be whom you would choose for a character reference, but his opinion of Honus Wagner wasn’t unique. Everyone seemed to love him. Wagner was universally praised for his patience, kindness and gentle nature. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429/31 "2013-05-15T18:36:53Z")
Formula 1 bad guy: Michael Schumacher. He wasn’t called The Cheetah for nothing. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429/32 "2013-05-15T18:45:24Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > Ty Cobb might not be whom you would choose for a character reference, but his opinion of Honus Wagner wasn’t unique. Everyone seemed to love him. Wagner was universally praised for his patience, kindness and gentle nature. Well, Cobb’s 1961 book includes a picture of Wagner with the caption, “No, I didn’t call Wagner ‘Krauthead’ and have my lip split by him in the 1909 World Series. That’s a fabrication. Honus was a block of granite. You didn’t fool around with him.” Cobb also commented, that Wagner “Played ball in an easygoing manner, until riled–then look out!” ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429/33 "2013-05-15T20:06:22Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Okay, for a more recent example, how about [John Rocker](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_rocker#Controversial_statements)? Good add. Grade A asshat. ---
**Author:** ![Jman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jman/32/4416_2.png) [@Jman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jman)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429/34 "2013-05-15T20:38:24Z")
Bad guys in hockey: PK ‘slew foot’ Subban and Alex ‘I’ll take your knee off with my knee’ Ovechkin. Ovechkin tends to get a pass since he’s so ungodly talented, but he is a dirty player. When he gets frustrated, he aims to injure. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429/35 "2013-05-15T21:43:14Z")
Baseball: Hal Chase. There are two different stories to tell about him. The first is the one where his contemporaries routinely said he was the best first baseman of his era, and the second is the one where he was the single most corrupt player ever to put on a uniform. The latter is probably the truest of the two. His history of throwing games is overshadowed by the Black Sox scandal, though one wonders why since he was almost certainly neck-deep in that, too. Football: Jack Tatum and Conrad Dobler dominate this list, though there are lots of others, including modern guys like James Harrison, Albert Haynesworth, Ryan Leaf, and Cortland Finnegan. Soccer: Where to start? Eric Cantona immediately comes to mind. Hockey: Lots of goons and pests to choose from, but let’s go with Marty McSorley and Todd Bertuzzi for their intentional assaults. Basketball: Ron Artest, both for what he did a few years back and for his blatant lie of a name change. Calling yourself “World Peace” after you’ve been a goon your entire career is the basest cynicism I’ve ever seen. Also, the point shaving crew from the early 1950s that destroyed a team (Indianapolis Olympians) and nearly destroyed the league. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429/36 "2013-05-15T21:51:21Z")
just to balance out the assholes from Detroit teams, I am obligated to mention Al Kaline, who was universally respected as a perfect gentleman and is the nicest guy you will ever meet. ---
**Author:** ![kevja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@kevja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevja)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429/37 "2013-05-16T01:02:15Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I’ve already given my spiel about how we can’t really KNOW who’s a good guy… but I admit, I’d be very sad if I found out that Ron Guidry (my favorite Yankee of all time) wasn’t a good guy. He always SEEMED to be one. What are you saying? Did you find out he wasn’t a good guy? Or you luv him so much, you don’t even want to think about the chance he might not be all that you propped him up to be? Seven pages of Google turn up nothing negative. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429/38 "2013-05-16T14:35:39Z")
> [@kevja](#): > > What are you saying? Did you find out he wasn’t a good guy? Or you luv him so much, you don’t even want to think about the chance he might not be all that you propped him up to be? > > Seven pages of Google turn up nothing negative. As a kid, yes, I did “luv” the Yankees. I’m 52 now, and far less sentimental about athletes or celebs in general. I have absolutely no reason to assert that Gator was/is NOT a wonderful guy- I’m just realistic enough to realize that I don’t really KNOW any of the athletes or celebs I once idolized, and can’t validly say which are good or bad people. As I’ve noted, many athletes once regarded as swell guys and great role models (Kirby Puckett, Steve Garvey, OJ Simpson, et al.) weren’t great guys at all. Some were merely flawed, like any other human being, and some were flat out scum. I retain just enough sentimentality to hope that athletes I once loved were worthy of that love. But it stands to reason that some of them, maybe many of them, weren’t. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429/39 "2013-05-16T15:56:08Z")
Two “good guys” from my Packers: Bart Starr and Donald Driver. Well-respected, both among their teammates and opponents, and both do a lot with off-the-field causes and charities. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429/40 "2013-05-17T05:02:51Z")
If you believe the Chicago media of my childhood, Ernie Banks was the nicest guy ever to play baseball. No idea how much truth there was to that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guy-and-bad-guy-teams-in-sports/657429.md?page=3)