# Nice guys finish last **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 15, 2002, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-finish-last/114263 "2002-06-15T22:09:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Paididiot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba8739/32.png) [@Paididiot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paididiot)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2002, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-finish-last/114263/41 "2002-06-17T21:23:34Z")
Personal experience time… Up until maybe ten minutes ago I thought I was a “nice guy”, but going on how nice guy seems to be getting stuck with “boring” or “uneventful” I think I’ll flee far far away from that misnomer… since I enjoy doing many random and stupid things… Many a few of my female friends have called me “a nice guy”, and for some reason that annoyed me. So I happened to get the nerve one day to ask a group of said friends to explain to me what they meant by “a nice guy”. It pretty much amounted to them saying I was polite and considerate. This made a lot more sense to me. I have no large lack of self esteem or confidence, I’m just in general a laid back person. I’ll talk to any random girls at parties I’m at, yet never end up with one of those signigicant others kinda thing. I do have friends who fit the actual “nice guy” defenition used in this thread. He is just intimidated by girls even though his mannerism are what many of the girls around us are always saying what they want… Course then he drinks a large amount and gets all “stupid brave” and makes many funny passes… but he isn’t the same person then. This is what I think at least, but no one pays me to think so take it as you will… -Duncan ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2002, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-finish-last/114263/42 "2002-06-17T22:12:53Z")
No. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2002, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-finish-last/114263/43 "2002-06-17T22:32:46Z")
> [@](#): > > However, even a real nice guy is often at a disadvantage. Empathy is a very useful skill, but caring can be disastrous. when it comes to love, women tend to want someone different than them. Women often feel as though they should care about other people, and have anxiety about this. A guy who also cares about other people, and has the inevitable anxiety this causes, will only bring more anxiety into a girl’s life. A guy who either cannot empathize or just doesn’t care is attractive to women because they lessen the anxiety by both making caring seem less important, and at the same time making the woman’s current caring level seem much higher by comparison. Women like to feel as though they are really nice people, and the less nice their partner is the nicer they look. You are sure enough about this to make a huge generalization about all women, everywhere, how? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2002, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-finish-last/114263/44 "2002-06-17T23:45:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Vivien \* > > I finished half of a flame over this, but realized there was no point. First of all, I’m new to this board, and a girl can’t go around flaming strangers…might get herself a bad image. Second, you’re probably saying such silly things with the hope of getting flamed. > > So, I’ll finish with this: do you have any studies to back this up? Any proof at all? Your statement completely ignores the fact that within our preplaced genders, we are all individuals. Unique, sometimes odd, sometimes psycho, but all pretty different from each other. Statements like ‘all women are secretely self conscious about everything’ cannot possibly be true when you realize just how many women are out there, with different goals, different life styles, even different sexual ‘identities’… > \*\* It’s just my opinion. The threat of getting flamed is certainly not going to change it. ---
**Author:** ![Cadaverous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Cadaverous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cadaverous)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2002, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-finish-last/114263/45 "2002-06-17T23:59:25Z")
Where do nice women finish? ---
**Author:** ![seawitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@seawitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seawitch)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2002, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-finish-last/114263/46 "2002-06-18T00:20:30Z")
Good lord. Some random personal experiences, a few unresolved issues, some bitterness, and a handcart of emotional baggage. Not a fact in sight, but the generalizations! My, they’re sweeping!(This is not a good thing.) This is starting to smell more and more like IMHO. Some of the opinions expressed so far have been _exceedingly_ humble. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2002, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-finish-last/114263/47 "2002-06-18T01:12:43Z")
You’re right, **seawitch** , and I couldn’t find your arrogant and assertive opinion on the OP _anywhere_. Imagine that! Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![seawitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@seawitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seawitch)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2002, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-finish-last/114263/48 "2002-06-18T02:26:36Z")
Sorry you feel that way, **mangeorge**. My opinion on the OP? No, nice guys do not necessarily finish last. I suppose it depends on what is meant by “nice”. I think **Manda Jo** has summed it up nicely - and since she said it so well, I didn’t want to rephrase it in a lesser form. I know lots of nice guys that have done very very well, in various aspects of their lives. Since I can’t claim to know either all men or all women, I can’t speak to what all [insert noun] want. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2002, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-finish-last/114263/49 "2002-06-18T07:53:54Z")
> [@](#): > > You are sure enough about this to make a huge generalization about all women, everywhere, how? Good point. Actually I agree with most of what Manda Jo said. Self proclaimed “nice guys” act “nice” selfishly, because they think it entitles them to something. In reality there is not one standard nice way to act that is always the best thing to do. You have to empathize with and actually care about someone to decide the best way to treat them. Nice is not a one size fits all proposition. I also voiced a theory that women want to consider themselves nice, and having a partner that is less nice than them makes this easier for them. Also, a partner who does not have great anxiety about other people could ease their anxiety. Actually this theory does not just apply to women. I think anyone who cares too much and has great anxiety could find someone attractive who lessens this anxiety. On the other hand, my first girlfriend was a very caring person, and it was as though we were dividing the burden between us. So, I must retract my generalization. Whether or not you are attracted to genuinely nice people or not is an individual attribute. Still, I think someone with both empathy and the ability to use it without niceness holding them back has the greatest advantage. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2002, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-finish-last/114263/50 "2002-06-18T13:07:09Z")
I think nice has little bearing on what girls like. Girls like a decent looking guy who puts on a good show. Saying a guy is “too nice” is just a nice way of saying “I found a better looking guy who puts on a better show, but I’m trying to spare your feelings”. Kind of like “it’s not you, it’s me” Asking why nice guys finish last is like asking why the sky’s blue or why guys dislike girls with “nice personalities”. They just do. ---
**Author:** ![burundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2002, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-finish-last/114263/51 "2002-06-18T16:39:01Z")
Not only does it depend on what you mean by “nice,” it depends on what you mean by “last.” My SO is an extremely nice guy–he’s caring, generous, courteous, and thoughtful. He also has a wicked sense of humor and won’t let anybody walk all over him. He has self-confidence–a damn sexy trait in a man _or_ a woman. With his skills and training, he could find a higher paying job than he has now. However, he chooses to stay in the non-profit field because doing good work is important to him. Has he finished “last” because he makes less money than some other people? Does “last” mean not ever having a girlfriend or just not being able to pick up all the hot chicks? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2002, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-finish-last/114263/52 "2002-06-18T21:50:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mack \* > \*\* > > Absolutely. > > The nice guy always makes sure his woman finishes before he does. \*\* Unless he’s planning on going more rounds than she is… ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2002, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-finish-last/114263/53 "2002-06-18T23:53:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by seawitch \* > \*\*Sorry you feel that way, **mangeorge**. My opinion on the OP? No, nice guys do not necessarily finish last. I suppose it depends on what is meant by “nice”. I think **Manda Jo** has summed it up nicely - and since she said it so well, I didn’t want to rephrase it in a lesser form. > > I know lots of nice guys that have done very very well, in various aspects of their lives. Since I can’t claim to know either all men or all women, I can’t speak to what all [insert noun] want. \*\* Sorry, **seawitch**. I surely didn’t mean any insult. Here’s the source of my glib statement; One of the meanings of “humble”, there are a few, from m-w: > [@](#): > > 1 : not proud or haughty : not arrogant or assertive I was checking the various meanings, and that one just jumped out at me. Shoulda put in a smiley or somethin’, huh? 🙂 Forgive me, and Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![seawitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@seawitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seawitch)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-finish-last/114263/54 "2002-06-19T16:41:03Z")
Peace, indeed, **mangeorge**. After I read your comment, I re-read my post, and came to the conclusion that it did seem a bit snotty. I tend to get a bit hot-headed when people start telling me what all women or all men are like - I should know better than to knee-jerk around here by now, huh? No harm, no foul. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-finish-last/114263.md?page=2)