# "Nice Guys" vs. Decent, Albeit Clueless, Men **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 17, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224 "2016-03-17T00:52:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/181 "2016-03-25T04:08:48Z")
> [@Sampsiceramos](#): > > That said, @2ManyTacos, I can already tell you that part of the reason you’re still single at 25 is that you appear to be looking for a girlfriend while bar-hopping. That’s not true at all. I’ve known a good many couples who met at the local pub. I, myself, had a 3 year relationship with someone I met at my local. ---
**Author:** ![Sampsiceramos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Sampsiceramos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampsiceramos)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/182 "2016-03-25T15:26:20Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > That’s not true at all. I’ve known a good many couples who met at the local pub. I, myself, had a 3 year relationship with someone I met at my local. There’s a marked difference between “the local pub” which can easily be the venue of meaningful social interaction and bar-hopping or clubbing with the express intent to get plastered. I interpreted 2ManyTacos statement as referring to the latter type of activity rather than the former - I’ve got a lot of similarly-aged friends and acquaintances who “go out” in that particular way and are consistently frustrated by their lack of romantic success. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/183 "2016-03-26T12:27:30Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > Cluelessness can be fixed. Jerks who pretend to be “nice” well, not so much. All your boys need is some instructions and education. Where to get this I am not sure. Do you have any women friends who could help out? You’re way, way off on your “Jerks who pretend to be ‘nice’”. There is no such thing. Jerks are already getting all of the boom-boom that they can handle. so, there is no incentive to even try to be nice. There are, however, the saps who think that they are nice, when, in reality, they are just weak. Women friends will not be able to help out. They, themselves, want the jerks, but, they will say that they want nice. (Actually, there are some women who want “nice”, but, they are outliers.) They may not even be aware that they prefer jerks. My observation, however, is that if a person is more self-centered than “nice” in a relationship, they will do much better. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/184 "2016-03-26T12:31:08Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > turn your sons into predators. Good idea. I think that somebody has lots and lots of lovely cats in her future. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/185 "2016-03-26T12:45:04Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > ‘Nice Guys’ as in Nice Guy Syndrome are in some ways, psychopaths - _ **it’s all about me and why women won’t seem to let me put my penis in them, even though I did all the things that should make a woman let me put my penis in her.** _ > > Women are essentially vending machines for sex/gratification for these people - and they can’t understand why the vending machines won’t serve them. Well, you can understand their confusion when, time after time, they see these vending machines pay off like slot machines to alcoholics, misogynists, loud mouth braggarts and con men. Character clearly isn’t the issue. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/186 "2016-03-26T12:54:39Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Again, though, is that ugly idea that there must be something wrong with the woman, because they want to date the “wrong” person and not you. > > How hard can it be to just admit that if people aren’t wanting to date you, it’s you who is the common factor? The problem, though, IS the woman. If the woman would tell the pud “lose some fucking weight, brush your teeth, and get off of the fucking XBox and get a career”, instead of “it’s not you, it’s me”, and “why can’t I find a Nice Guy”, the Nice Guy wouldn’t be so schizophrenic and confused. He looks to her for the feedback, and she gives him shit. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/187 "2016-03-26T13:00:44Z")
> [@P-man](#): > > To be fair, I did meet the mother of my children at a keg party. I’ve met some extremely wivable women at bars. Many hot, semi-virtuous at least, women would go out to bars for the same reason that the guys would go to bars. I’d say that 25% of the women that I’ve met weren’t just out looking for a stiff one, but, for actual relationship material. It’s kind of a Catch-22 to say “do you really want a relationship with someone you met at a bar?” when most of the time, that’s the only place to meet people, in bulk. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/188 "2016-03-26T13:07:39Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Women, in general, shy away from the potential for physical violence. They have less upper body strength, are accorded less respect, and often just don’t run as fast. Women, in general, are more likely to get killed by frustrated suitors. But, they also have a whole raft of buttinsky hangers on suitors who would more than happily gang up together on a frustrated suitor and kill him/bludgeon him to death, in hopes of currying favor with the Lady Faire. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/189 "2016-03-26T13:15:12Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > If movies and TV have taught me anything, its that women love it when a guy relentlessly chases after them, never gives up, follows them to their school, work, hobby, etc. Failing that, always make a big public romantic gesture, preferably some place she would be too embarrassed to reject you like on the jumbotron of a sports game or a flash mob in front of her work. Bug her friends and relatives to help you decide the best way to attract her. If she likes bald men, shave your hair off, if she likes pets, pretend you’re a vet, if she likes black guys take up rapping. > > Eventually, through sheer exhaustion, she will relent and go out with you one time. That one time will be magical and spark the desire that will grow in her until you guys get married [Pssst…you forgot the flowers! THE FLOWERS!] ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/190 "2016-03-26T13:37:18Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > The problem, though, IS the woman. If the woman would tell the pud “lose some fucking weight, brush your teeth, and get off of the fucking XBox and get a career”, instead of “it’s not you, it’s me”, and “why can’t I find a Nice Guy”, the Nice Guy wouldn’t be so schizophrenic and confused. He looks to her for the feedback, and she gives him shit. Yes, women. It’s your fault if men can’t figure out they need to brush their teeth. I guess in your world, every man needs every woman to be his mommy. I’m glad my world is not the same one. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/191 "2016-03-26T13:41:03Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > The problem, though, IS the woman. If the woman would tell the pud “lose some fucking weight, brush your teeth, and get off of the fucking XBox and get a career”, instead of “it’s not you, it’s me”, and “why can’t I find a Nice Guy”, the Nice Guy wouldn’t be so schizophrenic and confused. He looks to her for the feedback, and she gives him shit. This is not a serious response, right? You’re being facetious, doing an over-the-top faux Nice Guy act? ---
**Author:** ![Reluctant\_A](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/192 "2016-03-26T15:35:46Z")
> [@j666](#): > > This is not a serious response, right? You’re being facetious, doing an over-the-top faux Nice Guy act? That Poe’s Law is a motherfucker, ain’t it? ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/193 "2016-03-26T17:39:08Z")
> [@Reluctant\_A](#): > > That Poe’s Law is a motherfucker, ain’t it? Thing is, it’s not that far from other comments I’ve read, just never here. (And I’m terrible with names, so I just can’t always judge by the poster’s history, you know?) ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/194 "2016-03-26T18:49:24Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > This is true, but the problem here is largely with women. The fact is, most women simply do not know what a physically attractive man looks like unless it’s _really_ obvious. That may seem like a terribly condescending, “mansplainy” thing to say but, as with most things that are “mansplainy”, in my experience, it happens to be true: > > [OK Cupid: Women rate 80% of men as ‘less attractive than average’.](http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/) > > So perfectly respectable looking guys can, and do, fall at the first hurdle because women, as a group, have a tendency to wildly misjudge how attractive they are in relation to what _they think_ a handsome guy is _supposed_ to look like. > > So yeah, guys, make it obvious. Hit the gym. Put on some muscle. Repeat as needed. True enough, but it isn’t really a problem for the women. They’re just following their natural instincts. Only a minority of the male population is desirable from their point of view. Women will ignore/reject the majority of men because the women just aren’t feeling attraction wrt to most men. In the past, one man to one woman, more or less monogamous relationships were the norm because women were coerced into these relationships by social pressure - their families, their peer groups, the popular culture, law, as well as economic necessity. Basically, most women were forced to settle for men they found less than truly desirable. Now, they don’t have to settle. They can remain single and childless. They can poach or share a desirable man who is already taken. They can have a child with a desirable man while he is still in a relationship with someone else. This leaves a substantial number of men standing on the sidelines watching other men live their lives to the fullest. Learning game/pickup can definitely help these men have better love lives, but it won’t change the basic imbalance between male and female attraction. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/195 "2016-03-26T19:59:30Z")
[http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/20/is-there-anything-good-about-men-and-other-tricky-questions/?\_r=0](http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/20/is-there-anything-good-about-men-and-other-tricky-questions/?_r=0) > [@](#): > > While it’s true that about half of all the people who ever lived were men, the typical male was much more likely than the typical woman to die without reproducing. More recent research has called the exact ratios into question, but there’s a general agreement that many more women than men were destined to reproduce. One man to one woman couplings as the norm can only be achieved through some sort of coercion. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/196 "2016-03-26T20:30:27Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > True enough, but it isn’t really a problem for the women. They’re just following their natural instincts. Only a minority of the male population is desirable from their point of view. Women will ignore/reject the majority of men because the women just aren’t feeling attraction wrt to most men. It’s amazing how much more effort people will spend on convincing themselves that their situation is the result of forces far beyond their control than on improving their own lives. It’s much easier to ignore that something is blatantly false (less than half of all men are attractive to any women), toss a little worthless evolutionary psychology on it, and indirectly blame feminism than to figure out what makes you, personally, unattractive. Rather than defining ‘jerk’ as ‘any guy who has success with women’, blaming women for their own shortcomings, or coming up with elaborate pseudo-science theories about why women don’t like men (and ignoring all the ‘jerks’ who don’t seem to share the problem), nice guys would be better served sorting out their own issues (we’ve seen some examples in this thread) and learning how to socialize. It’s much more likely to lead to a fulfiling relationship, lots of hot babes, or even just less bitterness than becoming a lonely, raging hermit or predatory PUA. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/197 "2016-03-26T20:48:40Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > It’s amazing how much more effort people will spend on convincing themselves that their situation is the result of forces far beyond their control than on improving their own lives. It’s much easier to ignore that something is blatantly false (less than half of all men are attractive to any women), toss a little worthless evolutionary psychology on it, and indirectly blame feminism than to figure out what makes you, personally, unattractive. > > Rather than defining ‘jerk’ as ‘any guy who has success with women’, blaming women for their own shortcomings, or coming up with elaborate pseudo-science theories about why women don’t like men (and ignoring all the ‘jerks’ who don’t seem to share the problem), nice guys would be better served sorting out their own issues (we’ve seen some examples in this thread) and learning how to socialize. It’s much more likely to lead to a fulfiling relationship, lots of hot babes, or even just less bitterness than becoming a lonely, raging hermit or predatory PUA. Why so angry? ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/198 "2016-03-26T21:07:29Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Why so angry? Why so much projection? ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/199 "2016-03-26T21:25:02Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > You’re way, way off on your “Jerks who pretend to be ‘nice’”. There is no such thing. Jerks are already getting all of the boom-boom that they can handle. so, there is no incentive to even try to be nice. There are, however, the saps who think that they are nice, when, in reality, they are just weak. > > Women friends will not be able to help out. They, themselves, want the jerks, but, they will say that they want nice. (Actually, there are some women who want “nice”, but, they are outliers.) They may not even be aware that they prefer jerks. > > My observation, however, is that if a person is more self-centered than “nice” in a relationship, they will do much better. \*Jerks are already getting all of the boom-boom that they can handle. so, there is no incentive to even try to be nice. \* When I first realized this, it was more than a little unsettling. If a girl was into me, I could get away with just about anything. Sneak out of PE and have sex in the woods? “I can’t do that! Well, okay…” \*Women friends will not be able to help out. They, themselves, want the jerks, but, they will say that they want nice. (Actually, there are some women who want “nice”, but, they are outliers.) They may not even be aware that they prefer jerks. - Advice from well meaning women is often worse than useless. It can be actively counter-productive. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/200 "2016-03-26T22:20:52Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > [Is There Anything Good About Men? And Other Tricky Questions - The New York Times](http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/20/is-there-anything-good-about-men-and-other-tricky-questions/?_r=0) > > More recent research has called the exact ratios into question, but there’s a general agreement that many more women than men were destined to reproduce. **One man to one woman couplings as the norm can only be achieved through some sort of coercion.** ] The bold doesn’t necessarily follow from the preceding sentence. If ancient men were significantly more likely to die early in life, before they had a chance to father children, then you would see women outreproducing them. With all the wars, fights, and accidents disproportionately affecting men across the centuries, it isn’t surprising at all that this would be the case. Also, consider that in times of famine, women are hardier because they store more body fat than their high-metabolic brethren. Why not look at gender relations and reproduction trends occurring today? In communities where men and women are roughly equal in number, I don’t think there are hordes of men who struggle to find relationships. Most will pair up with someone. Find me statistics that say otherwise and I will be surprised. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224.md?page=11)