# "Nice Guys" vs. Decent, Albeit Clueless, Men **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 17, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224 "2016-03-17T00:52:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2016, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/261 "2016-03-28T19:02:15Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The idea that men are attracted to pretty women has really never bothered me. Being bothered if men find attractive women attractive would be a very frustrating state of mind. (And yes, I know that some women indulge in it.) I don’t think people are “wired” to think about motive. I think some people are trained to do so, or choose to do so. I think most references to wiring are attempts to use very shaky science to defend the way we want to think about the world. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2016, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/262 "2016-03-28T19:39:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I hope I didn’t come across as criticizing you, that wasn’t my intent. > > As mentioned, my dating experience is lost in the mists of history, but it would be fair to describe me as “floundering in the depths of clueless bewilderment” when I was 15 as well. But another of the pieces of advice given by PUAs is useful - develop a thick hide and dump her once you have determined that you aren’t going to get what you want. Sometimes that means she will think you are a jerk. Too bad. > > Simply talking endlessly about feelings with no chance of sex is why women need gay friends. > > Regards, > Shodan No offense taken, just trying to clarify what I said previously. Also, I think there have been times when I’ve filled the role of “heterosexual gay friend”. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/263 "2016-03-28T19:48:24Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Being bothered if men find attractive women attractive would be a very frustrating state of mind. (And yes, I know that some women indulge in it.) Being “attracted to” and “finding attractive” are not the same thing. (YWTF said the first and you switched to the second.) A given person can find Person A more attractive than Person B but be more attracted to Person B for their other qualities. I think a lot of the women who complain about this are complaining that this doesn’t happen more often. (Particularly since it _is_ more common among women themselves.) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/264 "2016-03-28T20:41:40Z")
I think pretty nearly everyone is initially attracted to others for reasons that are pretty shallow, if analyzed. How can it be otherwise? When you first meet someone, shallow is all you have to go on. The difference is that, once people get to know each other in more depth, some are swayed by qualities not evident on first meeting - character, integrity, kindness, things of that sort. But without the shallow attractions, there may not be reason for people to get to know each other further. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/265 "2016-03-28T20:44:33Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I think pretty nearly everyone is initially attracted to others for reasons that are pretty shallow, if analyzed. How can it be otherwise? When you first meet someone, shallow is all you have to go on. > > The difference is that, once people get to know each other in more depth, some are swayed by qualities not evident on first meeting - character, integrity, kindness, things of that sort. > > But without the shallow attractions, there may not be reason for people to get to know each other further. Two exceptions would be 1) people who are set up by mutual friends/relatives/acquaintances, and 2) people who know each other platonically first. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/266 "2016-03-29T00:20:33Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I don’t think we’re “wired” to do that as a rule. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > I don’t think people are “wired” to think about motive. I think some people are trained to do so, or choose to do so. I think most references to wiring are attempts to use very shaky science to defend the way we want to think about the world. I tend to agree, when it comes to that set of behaviors it’s not a “wired” as much as a socialized/conditioned response (which can involve both positive and negative feedback). And BTW let me just say that the people advocating certain strategies or tactics for dating success do themselves no favors with their terminology. _“Game”_? “Pick Up Artist”? “_Seduction_ Community”? Really, they could not come up with something that sounds mutually affirmative? (Conversely, I have little admiration either for those on the other side that advocate [so-called] “Rules” that involve a _fake_ make-him-chase-you mindf\*\*\* schtick.) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/267 "2016-03-29T00:31:03Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > …And BTW let me just say that the people advocating certain strategies or tactics for dating success do themselves no favors with their terminology. _“Game”_? “Pick Up Artist”? “_Seduction_ Community”? Really, they could not come up with something that sounds mutually affirmative? (Conversely, I have little admiration either for those on the other side that advocate [so-called] “Rules” that involve a _fake_ make-him-chase-you mindf\*\*\* schtick.) _Au contraire mon ami_. The whole schtick is meant to sell product to those men who have a very bad opinion of women. The PUA training business absolutely wants its product associated with ideas like that. Is that a good thing for society? Heck no; it’s terrible. But is it 100% on purpose? You bet it is. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/268 "2016-03-29T01:08:46Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Yes, women. It’s your fault if men can’t figure out they need to brush their teeth. > > I guess in your world, every man needs every woman to be his mommy. I’m glad my world is not the same one. I was so amazed at this horseshit response and juvenile behavior that I neglected to respond properly to the point: In m/f interactions, women usually give a suitor a brushoff with a vague response, such as “I’m busy this week” or “Not now” which, to logical minds, indicate the possibility of a future date. Which, to the mind of the female means that “there is no fucking way”, though he may keep trying, but, she will avoid his calls/texts/wtfs, and keep on with his requests till he finally gives up. Most males think in a more logical/literal fashion, meaning that if the female says “not now” it means later. So, that is what I meant by “it being the woman’s fault.” It’s an orderly world, sometimes, and giving out erroneous information leads to erroneous conclusions. Also, I don’t give a fuck if all of your SO’s have dirty teeth or not, or who tells them to brush them. Hyperbole, and all of that, which, though, I suspect you had already discerned. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/269 "2016-03-29T01:29:21Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > I was so amazed at this horseshit response and juvenile behavior that I neglected to respond properly to the point: > > In m/f interactions, women usually give a suitor a brushoff with a vague response, such as “I’m busy this week” or “Not now” which, to logical minds, indicate the possibility of a future date. Which, to the mind of the female means that “there is no fucking way”, though he may keep trying, but, she will avoid his calls/texts/wtfs, and keep on with his requests till he finally gives up. > > Most males think in a more logical/literal fashion, meaning that if the female says “not now” it means later. > > So, that is what I meant by “it being the woman’s fault.” It’s an orderly world, sometimes, and giving out erroneous information leads to erroneous conclusions. This is where a little bit of awareness goes a long way. As a guy, I don’t think I’ve _ever_ interpreted/mistook a girl’s “I’m busy” or “maybe” or whatever it may be as anything other than exactly what it was: rejection. When a woman gives these sort of open-ended "almost no"s, the actual words spoken are about the least important thing to pay attention to. What is her body language? How did she _sound_ when saying “I’m busy this week”? What sort of expression was on her face? Those things tell a man everything he needs to know. Only a socially inept, breathtakingly oblivious man would actually interpret such words in such a rigid, literal way. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/270 "2016-03-29T02:00:38Z")
“Sorry, but I’m just so busy. Thanks though.” and “Sorry, but I’m not physically attracted to you. And there’s nothing you can do to ever change this. Good day, sir!” I’m not thinking someone who is shy, socially awkward, and tender-hearted would really be able to deal with the harshness of the latter. “I’m just so busy!” is not really a lie. A lie would be “I’ve got a boyfriend.” or “I am not looking to date anyone right now.” Because these statements can be proven false. But if a person says they are too busy, they are telling you that they aren’t willing to make room for you in their schedule–whatever that schedule is. They aren’t obligated to be any more upfront than that. In my younger days, I used to give guys the brush off with “I’m too busy”. The ones who impressed me were the ones who said something like, “That’s cool. Let me know if you change your mind.” ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/271 "2016-03-29T08:57:35Z")
The core issues with Nice Guy ™ Syndrome are 1\> when the desire / expectation of attention from women becomes an over-riding, central focus of their existence and 2\> they feel entitled to that attention. It would be good to let them know that they are not entitled to anyone’s attention, no matter how much they may want it. They can always ask, but must accept a “No” answer graciously the _first_ time. Don’t worry about people who play games or don’t know what they want. It’s not anyone’s job to make up someone’s mind for them. Give these people space (aka walk away) and they will either figure themselves out, or they won’t, but in either case it’s not your sons’ problem. Who wants to date someone like that anyway? And getting back to #1 – develop and cultivate interests and social spheres that have nothing to do with dating / meeting women. It removes dating as the all-consuming focus, with the side benefit that people with interests are interest_ing._ Cultivating skills and a social life will also help develop confidence, which is necessary both for attracting positive, healthy relationships (of all kinds) and not _needing_ to. On the topic of soft nos (aka “Um I’m busy”) – please remember that [women have been murdered for rejecting men](http://whenwomenrefuse.tumblr.com/). A soft no isn’t deception, it’s about giving the guy a way to save face, or a distraction tactic, so we can go home that night still in one piece. Blaming women for using soft nos pretty well reveals that entitlement we were discussing earlier… ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/272 "2016-03-29T09:58:34Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > And BTW let me just say that the people advocating certain strategies or tactics for dating success do themselves no favors with their terminology. _“Game”_? “Pick Up Artist”? “_Seduction_ Community”? Really, they could not come up with something that sounds mutually affirmative? You’re right, but it can be hard to think of a name for these things. Like I keep saying, most of what I learned when I did all that PUA stuff was conversational skills that are useful in lots of social situations. And appropriately enough, many of the people on the course were girls. But if you call it “general conversational skills” then maybe one of the key markets for such advice – frustrated men – don’t realize that it’s something that can help them. OTOH it does deter others…clearly the whole scene needs some rebranding at this point. But in the meantime I’ll continue to be the board’s resident defender of the PUA scene because I know I was not a bad person, I just found it impossible to initiate relationships and had no idea what I was doing wrong. I never blamed women for that, and PUA never told me to. Now I’m much more successful thanks to just being more socially aware. I wish I could go back in time and tell the young me what I was doing wrong but the next best thing is to defend PUA on boards like this in the hope some guys will get the same benefit I did. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/273 "2016-03-29T14:39:23Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > I was so amazed at this horseshit response and juvenile behavior that I neglected to respond properly to the point: > > In m/f interactions, women usually give a suitor a brushoff with a vague response, such as “I’m busy this week” or “Not now” which, to logical minds, indicate the possibility of a future date. Which, to the mind of the female means that “there is no fucking way”, though he may keep trying, but, she will avoid his calls/texts/wtfs, and keep on with his requests till he finally gives up. > > Most males think in a more logical/literal fashion, meaning that if the female says “not now” it means later. > > So, that is what I meant by “it being the woman’s fault.” It’s an orderly world, sometimes, and giving out erroneous information leads to erroneous conclusions. > > Also, I don’t give a fuck if all of your SO’s have dirty teeth or not, or who tells them to brush them. Hyperbole, and all of that, which, though, I suspect you had already discerned. I dunno if “most males” do that. However, I will say this: picking up on things like body language, suggestions, and nuance is pretty key to flirting, and is a key skill for anyone looking to get action - male or female. Like any skill, some just have more talent for it than others; like any skill, almost anyone can improve it with deliberate practice. To my mind, it’s a lot better to work at improving one’s skills, than bemoaning one’s fate; or worse, blaming others for one’s own lack of skill at understanding this particular form of human communication. From what I know of PUA stuff, it isn’t exactly the same thing - at least, it comes with a grab-bag of tools for supposedly manipulating women. I have no idea if they work, but it sure looks unpleasant. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/274 "2016-03-29T14:48:51Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > I was so amazed at this horseshit response and juvenile behavior that I neglected to respond properly to the point: Leave the personal insults out of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/275 "2016-03-29T16:06:26Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > “Sorry, but I’m just so busy. Thanks though.” > > and > > “Sorry, but I’m not physically attracted to you. And there’s nothing you can do to ever change this. Good day, sir!” I recently texted a man after a first date (when he texted me looking for a second) that I was uninterested. He wanted to know why. ‘I just didn’t feel it’ was my response. I continued to get texts offering to hang out again for a week. I ignored them, and he’s since gone away. **Handsomeharry** , is it your belief that I should have listed off all of his faults and missteps to him? If so, why? I’m not being paid to be his life coach. I would make a shitty life coach anyway, especially to a man. If a man wants to learn how to act like a good man, then he should talk to a good man. If I want to learn, for example, how to be a good teacher, I should ask students for their opinion, sure, but first, I need to learn from another teacher, don’t I? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/276 "2016-03-29T16:26:04Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Most males think in a more logical/literal fashion, meaning that if the female says “not now” it means later. Most men don’t think like this; believe or not, most in my experience are more than capable of reading between the lines. Doing the same thing over and over again with the expectation of getting a different response is the definition of insanity, not logical reasoning. If women repeatedly tell you “I’m busy” and that _never_ turns into a “yes”, then how many times do you need to hear it before you stop asking and get a clue? Those that can’t figure this kind of thing themselves tend to struggle with interactions in other ways, which unsurprisingly makes them unattractive. It’s not women’s fault they are built like this no more than it’s men’s fault that some women have homely faces. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/277 "2016-03-29T16:34:07Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Doing the same thing over and over again with the expectation of getting a different response is the definition of insanity, not logical reasoning. If women repeatedly tell you “I’m busy” and that _never_ turns into a “yes”, then how many times do you need to hear it before you stop asking and get a clue? The same reasoning works in reverse, too. If a woman keeps saying “I’m busy” and the guy keeps asking, how long until she gets a clue and tells him something else? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/278 "2016-03-29T16:47:33Z")
this is topical: > **[Man Worried Harassing Messages He Sending On Dating App Getting Lost Among...](https://www.theonion.com/man-worried-harassing-messages-he-sending-on-dating-app-1819578718)** > > NORRISTOWN, PA—Saying he wasn’t sure whether writing to them was even worth the effort at this point, local man Luke Browning expressed concern to reporters Tuesday that the offensive messages he’s been sending women through OkCupid are getting lost... ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/279 "2016-03-29T17:31:17Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That applies to virtually any character trait. But the key question is whether those people like or love them in spite of their jerkiness or because of their jerkiness. > > As I’ve indicated above, I think it’s a complex matter, but that there are aspects of jerkiness (perceived strength and self-confidence) that do appeal to many women, even if they may be repelled by other aspects. > > That does not logically follow. > > f someone says (most) women like tall men it does not follow that most married/involved men are tall. It just means that height is an appealing aspect for many women. This. It took several pages before someone hammered this point. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/280 "2016-03-29T17:45:39Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > This. > It took several pages before someone hammered this point. The way it’s often phrased in these conversations is something like “Women don’t like nice guys. Women like jerks.” So, what is being said about the men who are married/involved? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224.md?page=15)