# "Nice Guys" vs. Decent, Albeit Clueless, Men **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 17, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224 "2016-03-17T00:52:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/281 "2016-03-29T18:06:55Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > The way it’s often phrased in these conversations is something like “Women don’t like nice guys. Women like jerks.” So, what is being said about the men who are married/involved? \*\*Fotheringay-Phipps \*\*already addressed it best, IMHO: > [@](#): > > If someone says (most) women like tall men it does not follow that most married/involved men are tall. It just means that height is an appealing aspect for many women. Therefore: _If someone says women like jerks, it does not follow that most married/involved men are jerks. It just means that jerk traits are an appealing aspect for many women._ Emphasis, of course, on ‘many.’ Not all. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/282 "2016-03-29T18:15:32Z")
Anyway, back on topic: In my observation, one reason some men mistakenly believe that deception, ‘strategy,’ manipulation or indirect-ness is required to attract a woman is because they have indeed initiated directly to a woman before and been rejected - but then mistakenly conclude that _the directness was the reason for the rejection_. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/283 "2016-03-29T18:16:50Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > \*\*Fotheringay-Phipps \*\*already addressed it best, IMHO: > > Therefore: > > _If someone says women like jerks, it does not follow that most married/involved men are jerks. It just means that jerk traits are an appealing aspect for many women._ > Emphasis, of course, on ‘many.’ Not all. You’re ignoring the other half. Let me show you the context again: > [@](#): > > Women friends will not be able to help out. They, themselves, want the jerks, but, they will say that they want nice. (Actually, there are some women who want “nice”, but, they are outliers.) They may not even be aware that they prefer jerks. If someone says women don’t like nice guys (with “nice guys” defined however you like) who are women marrying? Think about the logic. Women don’t like “nice guys.” Many guys get married to women. Those women are either marrying non-“nice guys” or marrying someone they don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/284 "2016-03-29T18:27:27Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > You’re right, but it can be hard to think of a name for these things. Like I keep saying, most of what I learned when I did all that PUA stuff was conversational skills that are useful in lots of social situations. And appropriately enough, many of the people on the course were girls. > But if you call it “general conversational skills” then maybe one of the key markets for such advice – frustrated men – don’t realize that it’s something that can help them. I don’t mean to tell you what your experience was, and I’m sure there are plenty of things I’ve had good experiences with that I’ll defend and feel good about defending against criticism. Wouldn’t you agree, though, that the specific reason the key market wouldn’t realize “general conversational skills” would be a class that would help them is because they are specifically looking for “pickup” or “seduction” or “game” techniques? In other words, it’s not a branding issue because seduction and game is exactly what they are attempting to sell to those dudes, isn’t it? Whether or not it’s useful in other social settings is a legitimate point about its utility as a whole, but the explicitly stated purpose of the whole industry is teaching men how to get women to fuck them. It is frustrating sometimes that its defenders will obscure that point as if they acknowledge that there’s a possible downside to that approach, when the purveyors of it put it right up front in bold letters. I mean, I just googled “PUA” figuring that’s what somebody brand new to the idea would do. The first result is Wikipedia. The second is an anti-PUA PSA. The third is a forum community of pickup enthusiasts, and if you click on the link you get a popup selling you a video that will tell you, inter alia: > [@](#): > > How To Approach Any Woman With Zero Chance Of Rejection… This Works EVERY Time! > How To Make Out With Any Woman You Want In 16 Minutes Or Less > The Secret To Developing Emotional Addiction In Women (That Makes Them Loyal And Obedient) It ain’t about general conversation. In fact, it’s explicitly also not about anything that is mutually affirmative. It’s about mooting the entire idea of consent. ---
**Author:** ![iljitsch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/77aa72/32.png) [@iljitsch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iljitsch)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/285 "2016-03-29T18:32:09Z")
> [@Small\_Hen](#): > > is it your belief that I should have listed off all of his faults and missteps to him? If so, why? Why are you saying this as if it’s a ridiculous thing to even consider answering the guy’s question? The problem with offering reasons is that this can give people the idea that fixing those reasons will give them a second chance. But there is something to be said to let people know about fixable things they’re doing wrong. That way they can do better in the future. If everyone does that this will benefit you as men you encounter won’t be as clueless. > [@](#): > > If a man wants to learn how to act like a good man, then he should talk to a good man. If they were in the position to recognize good men and talk to them, they wouldn’t have the problem at hand in the first place. Also, “good” women talking to each other doesn’t seem to make them any less single. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/286 "2016-03-29T18:34:27Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You’re ignoring the other half. Let me show you the context again: > If someone says women don’t like nice guys (with “nice guys” defined however you like) who are women marrying? Think about the logic. > > Women don’t like “nice guys.” > Many guys get married to women. > Those women are either marrying non-“nice guys” or marrying someone they don’t like. If someone says men don’t like “fat women” (with “fat” defined however you like) then who are men marrying? Men don’t like “fat women.” Many guys get married to women. Those men are either marrying “non-fat” women or marrying someone they don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/287 "2016-03-29T18:35:19Z")
> [@iljitsch](#): > > Why are you saying this as if it’s a ridiculous thing to even consider answering the guy’s question? > > The problem with offering reasons is that this can give people the idea that fixing those reasons will give them a second chance. No it’s not. The problem with offering reasons is that it is offering criticism to somebody who is already feeling rejected and frustrated and has already given at least one slight indication that they’re not worried about pushing the boundaries with you. Do you think they’re all making up the fact that when you answer that question honestly, what you generally get in return is verbal abuse and insults? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/288 "2016-03-29T18:37:15Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If someone says men don’t like “fat women” (with “fat” defined however you like) then who are men marrying? > > Men don’t like “fat women.” > Many guys get married to women. > Those men are either marrying “non-fat” women or marrying someone they don’t like. That would indeed be the argument that person would be making. You’ve set out the argument. Now you get to assess it. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/289 "2016-03-29T18:37:28Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I don’t mean to tell you what your experience was, and I’m sure there are plenty of things I’ve had good experiences with that I’ll defend and feel good about defending against criticism. > > Wouldn’t you agree, though, that the specific reason the key market wouldn’t realize “general conversational skills” would be a class that would help them is because they are specifically looking for “pickup” or “seduction” or “game” techniques? In other words, it’s not a branding issue because seduction and game is exactly what they are attempting to sell to those dudes, isn’t it? Whether or not it’s useful in other social settings is a legitimate point about its utility as a whole, but the explicitly stated purpose of the whole industry is teaching men how to get women to fuck them. It is frustrating sometimes that its defenders will obscure that point as if they acknowledge that there’s a possible downside to that approach, when the purveyors of it put it right up front in bold letters. > > I mean, I just googled “PUA” figuring that’s what somebody brand new to the idea would do. The first result is Wikipedia. The second is an anti-PUA PSA. > > The third is a forum community of pickup enthusiasts, and if you click on the link you get a popup selling you a video that will tell you, inter alia: > > It ain’t about general conversation. I must concur that “learning to flirt” and “PUA techniques” appear to be two different things. The first is something that facilitates a certain type of communication. The second may have some of that, but looks more like a bunch of techniques for manipulating women into sleeping with the PUA advocate. Looks, at least on the surface, icky. The women involved look more like targets for fun than partners in fun. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/290 "2016-03-29T18:42:05Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If someone says men don’t like “fat women” (with “fat” defined however you like) then who are men marrying? > > Men don’t like “fat women.” > Many guys get married to women. > Those men are either marrying “non-fat” women or marrying someone they don’t like. So lots of men do in fact like fat women, and whoever keeps saying that men don’t like fat women is a stupid idiot. That’s the solution to the riddle. Are you trying to make some other point with this syllogism? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/291 "2016-03-29T18:45:03Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > So lots of men do in fact like fat women, and whoever keeps saying that men don’t like fat women is a stupid idiot. That’s the solution to the riddle. Are you trying to make some other point with this syllogism? Are you really trying to deny that thinness in women is an appealing aspect for many men? Or are you trying to make some other point? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/292 "2016-03-29T18:49:48Z")
> [@iljitsch](#): > > Why are you saying this as if it’s a ridiculous thing to even consider answering the guy’s question? > > The problem with offering reasons is that this can give people the idea that fixing those reasons will give them a second chance. > > But there is something to be said to let people know about fixable things they’re doing wrong. That way they can do better in the future. If everyone does that this will benefit you as men you encounter won’t be as clueless. > If they were in the position to recognize good men and talk to them, they wouldn’t have the problem at hand in the first place. > > Also, “good” women talking to each other doesn’t seem to make them any less single. I don’t think that’s fair. It isn’t a reasonable expectation that women go around offering life lessons, at the possible cost of embarrassment and hurt feelings directed at them. Flip the script, and you will see why this doesn’t work (ignoring for the moment the point about women fearing for their physical safety). Say some woman approaches you, but for whatever reason, she just doesn’t turn your crank. Would you feel at all comfortable saying something like “you know, I’m just not into you, but if you did a few things - like fixed your hair different, maybe had on more (or less) makeup, maybe worked out a little, or dressed a trifle less dowdy (or less revealing, or whatever), or had better hygiene, or more educated tastes, - I could have been”? I know I wouldn’t be - why should I run the risk of making a possible enemy of her? Lots of women would not at all take such advice as well-meaning constructive criticism, but rather, as a full-blown humiliation and personal attack. I can’t know in advance how she’ll take it, so even if I’m thinking it, I’m hardly likely to blurt it out (however tactfully put). It is all risk and no benefit. I have nothing necessarily invested in this person, and I’m not likely to take on a bunch of risk for no benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/293 "2016-03-29T18:49:55Z")
I’m making the point you damn well know I’m making, and the same point that **Velocity** is hamfistedly contesting, which is that “women don’t like nice guys” is a facile oversimplification of a complicated thing, and overstates the argument to such an extent that it’s obviously false. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/294 "2016-03-29T18:53:24Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It is all risk and no benefit. I have nothing necessarily invested in this person, and I’m not likely to take on a bunch of risk for no benefit. It’s especially funny coming in the context of a post that says people should be more “self-centered.” ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/295 "2016-03-29T18:58:46Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I’m making the point you damn well know I’m making, and the same point that **Velocity** is hamfistedly contesting, which is that “women don’t like nice guys” is a facile oversimplification of a complicated thing, and overstates the argument to such an extent that it’s obviously false. I disagree. You’re deliberately interpreting “women don’t like nice guys” in absolute terms such that you can refute it. This, despite **Velocity** taking pains to make clear that this was not his intention (in saying “_Emphasis, of course, on ‘many.’ Not all._”) To be clear (not that it wasn’t already): The suggestion here is that thinness in women is parallel to jerkiness in men. There’s something about it which makes it appealing, and all else being equal possessors of those qualities will tend to have a leg up in terms of appeal for the opposite sex. But this does not imply that all married women are thin or that all married men are jerks. Very simple, really. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/296 "2016-03-29T19:09:09Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I disagree. You’re deliberately interpreting “women don’t like nice guys” in absolute terms such that you can refute it. This, despite **Velocity** taking pains to make clear that this was not his intention (in saying “_Emphasis, of course, on ‘many.’ Not all._”) > > To be clear (not that it wasn’t already): The suggestion here is that thinness in women is parallel to jerkiness in men. There’s something about it which makes it appealing, and all else being equal possessors of those qualities will tend to have a leg up in terms of appeal for the opposite sex. But this does not imply that all married women are thin or that all married men are jerks. > > Very simple, really. I honestly don’t think it works that way. It is more like there are certain qualities women find attractive, such as confidence and good looks, that are orthogonal to jerkiness. Some women may be willing to overlook, or are so foolish as to not notice, jerkiness in men that possess these positive qualities, but I rather doubt they are actively attracted to jerks. The equivalent would be men attracted to women who are pretty, despite the fact that they are jerks. Thinness may be a criterion in a man’s judgment as to the relative prettiness of women (varies with the man - I myself like 'em thin, and I’m willing to accept that’s the majority view, if only for the sake of argument), but I rather doubt jerkishness is an actual criterion for attractiveness in men. In short - line up men who are equal in positive qualities, only divided into jerks and non-jerks, and I doubt the former have an actual advantage over the latter. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/297 "2016-03-29T19:12:11Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I’m making the point you damn well know I’m making, and the same point that **Velocity** is hamfistedly contesting, which is that “women don’t like nice guys” is a facile oversimplification of a complicated thing, and overstates the argument to such an extent that it’s obviously false. And while doing so, insults both men and women. Men who use the construct think they are just sneering at women, but they are also sneering at men. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/298 "2016-03-29T19:18:49Z")
I think a ranking goes like this: 1. Confident nice guy (most attractive) \*\*2. Confident jerk 2. Un-confident nice guy\*\* 3. Un-confident jerk (least attractive) The vast majority of discussion on this topic, and confusion for millions of nice guys in the world, centers on the fact that 2# ranks higher than 3#. Nobody thinks it unusual that 1# is higher than 4#. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/299 "2016-03-29T19:19:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I honestly don’t think it works that way. That’s fine. The problem at this point is that there’s going to be confusion over what the position is versus whether it’s correct. The point of my exchange with JC was what the position is, and whether it’s comparable to men’s preference for thin women. Fact is that it is, for purposes of this discussion, and JsG’s assertion that this implies that married men are jerks is a completely specious one. That doesn’t mean you can’t disagree with the position itself, as you’re doing here, but it confuses the issue. > [@](#): > > It is more like there are certain qualities women find attractive, such as confidence and good looks, that are orthogonal to jerkiness. Some women may be willing to overlook, or are so foolish as to not notice, jerkiness in men that possess these positive qualities, but I rather doubt they are actively attracted to jerks. > > The equivalent would be men attracted to women who are pretty, despite the fact that they are jerks. > > Thinness may be a criterion in a man’s judgment as to the relative prettiness of women (varies with the man - I myself like 'em thin, and I’m willing to accept that’s the majority view, if only for the sake of argument), but I rather doubt jerkishness is an actual criterion for attractiveness in men. > > In short - line up men who are equal in positive qualities, only divided into jerks and non-jerks, and I doubt the former have an actual advantage over the latter. Certainly not deliberately or consciously. [I’ve suggested](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19188576&postcount=66) that subconsciously there is, in that jerks tend to be perceived as stronger or more self-confident. I don’t have any proof of this, and you can obviously disagree. But the point again, at this point of the conversation, is that the notion that this position implies that married men are necessarily jerks is silly. > [@Velocity](#): > > I think a ranking goes like this: > > 1. Confident nice guy (most attractive) > \*\*2. Confident jerk > 2. Un-confident nice guy\*\* > 3. Un-confident jerk (least attractive) > > The vast majority of discussion on this topic, and confusion for millions of nice guys in the world, centers on the fact that 2# ranks higher than 3#. Nobody thinks it unusual that 1# is higher than 4#. I agree with this. But my hypothesis is that to some extent jerkiness is itself perceived as confidence, and “nice guy” attributes are perceived as weakness. To the extent that you can pull off being seen as confident despite being a nice guy, then all to the better, but I don’t think these things are completely uncorrelated. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/300 "2016-03-29T19:32:31Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > The same reasoning works in reverse, too. If a woman keeps saying “I’m busy” and the guy keeps asking, how long until she gets a clue and tells him something else? Until she loses all sympathy for him and reports him to HR for sexual harassment? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224.md?page=16)