# "Nice Guys" vs. Decent, Albeit Clueless, Men **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 17, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224 "2016-03-17T00:52:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/321 "2016-03-29T23:50:44Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Men for the most part don’t talk in code. Except for the Nice Guys who, when you talk to them, try to make their passes at women almost entirely in a code that they made up… ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/322 "2016-03-30T00:05:44Z")
> [@iljitsch](#): > > [How long does a woman keep saying she’s busy] > > If you say you’re busy you can’t complain if people come back to ask again. I know it sounds unlikely, but there are real people out there that are actually busy. Just-pay-attention!! She’s telling you everything you’d ever need to know about the chances of getting a date with her. It’s not her responsibility to make up for your cluelessness. It’s your responsibility to get a clue. And that’s easy to do: watch, listen and observe the unspoken communication. A girl who is interested will _find_ the time, even if she is busy atm. ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/323 "2016-03-30T00:34:15Z")
> [@](#): > > And sometimes those same guys tell us things like “women don’t know what they want,” or “women don’t like nice guys.” These kind of statements are part of “rape culture.” Women know full well what they want (varies by individual), and it’s not the weird games not-nice men play. Why don’t you accept that? If a woman actually wanted to go out with you or sleep with you, she’d tell you. If you have to manipulate, pester, stalk, or play games, it’s pretty clear she doesn’t want to have anything to do with you. Accept it and move on. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/324 "2016-03-30T01:36:53Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > BTW, another problem that nice guys have is that a side effect of treating women like some alien being leads to completely dismissing the actual experience of women. For all the ‘female friends can’t help you learn to date’ silliness, it is definitely true if you are going to dismiss their experience and advice. Quoting for truth and gratitude. Heaven fucking forfend we take people at their own word regarding their personal experience. If I could give the entire world one gift, it would be empathy. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/325 "2016-03-30T02:51:50Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Wouldn’t you agree, though, that the specific reason the key market wouldn’t realize “general conversational skills” would be a class that would help them is because they are specifically looking for “pickup” or “seduction” or “game” techniques? > In other words, it’s not a branding issue because seduction and game is exactly what they are attempting to sell to those dudes, isn’t it? Whether or not it’s useful in other social settings is a legitimate point about its utility as a whole, but the explicitly stated purpose of the whole industry is teaching men how to get women to fuck them. It is frustrating sometimes that its defenders will obscure that point as if they acknowledge that there’s a possible downside to that approach, when the purveyors of it put it right up front in bold letters. Well there’s a degree of bait-and-switch there. I learned PUA because I wanted to have a girlfriend. I was so bad at approaching women that I couldn’t conceive of how I’d make that happen. And I’d say there were more guys like this than those trying to get laid as often as possible (not that I would necessarily say there’s anything wrong with the latter). So, no, it’s not just about trying to get women to fuck you. As a slight aside at this point, note that The Game is mostly a story about a guy who falls in love; at least the second half of the book, maybe more, is about his relationship with her. > [@](#): > > I mean, I just googled “PUA” figuring that’s what somebody brand new to the idea would do. The first result is Wikipedia. The second is an anti-PUA PSA. I know: it’s funny the trajectory this whole thing has taken. Funny and sad. To guys like me who were _hopeless_ at talking to women it was such a revelation to learn that meeting people for the first time is a skill, and you can improve. It changed my life. I wondered how society would adapt to a reality where these kinds of social skills become commonplace. The answer is that it would focus on perceived negative aspects of it (e.g. negging) and dismiss the whole thing as misogynistic. At once something that exploits men (because it doesn’t work) and abuses women (because it does work). So sad. > [@](#): > > [from a PUA forum] > It ain’t about general conversation. In fact, it’s explicitly also not about anything that is mutually affirmative. It’s about mooting the entire idea of consent. That sounds like something an anti-PUA would set up. Why would someone even say that? Regardless, I’m not saying there are not jerks in the industry; indeed I already alluded that they are. What I’m arguing against is the assertion that it’s only or mainly jerks. ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/326 "2016-03-30T03:01:00Z")
> [@](#): > > To guys like me who were hopeless at talking to women i This is what i object to. Women are people. You don’t have to talk to us in a weird, special way. If you can talk to a man, you can talk to a woman. If you have to learn weird games or ways of talking to women, just because they don’t have penises, there is something really wrong with your approach to life and something even more wrong with your approach to dating. What is so hard about accepting that women are just people? :mad: ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/327 "2016-03-30T03:04:03Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Quoting for truth and gratitude. Heaven fucking forfend we take people at their own word regarding their personal experience. If I could give the entire world one gift, it would be empathy. I don’t doubt that there are women who can and do give their male friends good advice, but I don’t remember getting any. Most of what I heard was along the lines of "you’re a good guy; there are lots of women who would like to date you. " Their heart was in the right place, but either they were overly concerned about hurting my feelings or genuinely mystified as to why I didn’t date. There were certainly a few “I told you so’s” when I got engaged. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/328 "2016-03-30T03:24:04Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Yes. > > Men for the most part don’t talk in code. I’ve known plenty a clueless-at-dating guy, but none who, when friends beg off multiple times for whatever reason (work / kids / fixing the car / etc.), didn’t get the hint after a couple of attempts and then grouse about it later. You know, “I can’t believe Greg never leaves the house anymore after the baby came.” or “That new job takes up all of Kevin’s time.” And amazingly, they stopped asking. No 8 billion tries anyway, no asking them repeatedly to change their minds, and certainly no hounding for explanations about _why_. Just… okay and moving on. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/329 "2016-03-30T03:36:41Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Yes, really. **I literally don’t know** a single woman who has been actively dating for a decent amount of time in the current decade who attempted do the ‘explain why you were rejected thing’ routinely who didn’t get at least one assault/rape/death threat for it. Statistical sampling size and confirmation bias. Here’s what you said: > [@Pantastic](#): > > Because random women who happen to talk to you briefly don’t owe you anything, much less have an obligation to become some sort of freelance therapist. ESPECIALLY when \*\*pretty much every woman who tries it \*\*ends up getting threats of rape, assault, and/or death. There are over 3,500,000,000 women in the world. You are acquainted with only a small fraction of them. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/330 "2016-03-30T04:51:09Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Statistical sampling size and confirmation bias. Complete lack of counterexamples, or really anything other than “I’m sure I know better than women what women encounter when they try this thing.” Also, trying to suddenly demand some sort of hyper-technical statistical analysis in a discussion that has been about personal experiences and generalities doesn’t actually make an effective discussion, it just shows that you have no objection of substance. > [@](#): > > There are over 3,500,000,000 women in the world. You are acquainted with only a small fraction of them. There are way less than 3.5 billion women actively dating in the US, if you try to drag China and India and Africa and a host of other areas into a discussion that was clearly focused on US (any maybee CW) culture it generally means that you have no real argument. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/331 "2016-03-30T06:01:03Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > This is what i object to. Women are people. You don’t have to talk to us in a weird, special way. If you can talk to a man, you can talk to a woman. If you have to learn weird games or ways of talking to women, just because they don’t have penises, there is something really wrong with your approach to life and something even more wrong with your approach to dating. > What is so hard about accepting that women are just people? I agree with you, and I think you’ve used one thing I said there as a jumping off point inappropriately. You’ll note in the same post I also said “having difficulty meeting _people_” [emphasis added]. It’s like this: in my early twenties I found it incredibly difficult initiating relationships of _any_ kind. But it was the lack of a girlfriend that really bothered me…having few friends was also a problem, but I wasn’t _conscious_ of that problem. Only later as I improved did I appreciate that many of the social skills required for initiating and maintaining a romantic relationship are the same skills required for initiating meaningful friendships, and that my life was really suffering for the lack of strong friendships as much as it was for a girlfriend. And, just FTR, my “approach” now with meeting an attractive woman is exactly the same as for a woman I’m not attracted to, or a man, or whoever. Putting people at ease, really listening to them (where listening is absolutely not pretending to find everything they say interesting), and not “latching on” to someone works well in all situations. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/332 "2016-03-30T06:27:57Z")
Also, while we’re on the subject of women being people, it should be noted that in this thread there have been countless instances of “Why do some men do X” for an X that is also common among women. For example, plenty of women have difficulty speaking to new people, or keep trying to go for a guy who’s said as politely as he can that he’s not interested. These aren’t guy things these are people things. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/333 "2016-03-30T12:17:42Z")
> [@iljitsch](#): > > Well, I certainly don’t have all the answers. And I’m very happy that we can have this debate here in a (mostly) civil way without people ignoring, patronizing or insulting each other. That’s certainly my goal and if I’m not succeeding, I promise to make a valiant attempt at taking any feedback as constructive. I think you’re doing fine. > [@](#): > > There are people who like blunt directness and people who like little (or not so little) white lies. “Do these pants make me look fat?” > > “No, it’s your huge behind that makes you look fat” vs “No they look great on you!” > > But it’s usually possible to be tactful and at least stay in the general neighborhood of the truth: “I like the blue ones better on you.” Absolutely. I agree with all of this so far. So, now can you put it in terms (remember the context of this conversation) of someone getting turned down for a date? I can’t think of a good way to “blue pants” that. > [@Mijin](#): > > Also, while we’re on the subject of women being people, it should be noted that in this thread there have been countless instances of “Why do some men do X” for an X that is also common among women. > > For example, plenty of women have difficulty speaking to new people, or keep trying to go for a guy who’s said as politely as he can that he’s not interested. These aren’t guy things these are people things. So much agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/334 "2016-03-30T15:05:36Z")
> [@P-man](#): > > I don’t doubt that there are women who can and do give their male friends good advice, but I don’t remember getting any. Most of what I heard was along the lines of "you’re a good guy; there are lots of women who would like to date you. " Their heart was in the right place, but either they were overly concerned about hurting my feelings or genuinely mystified as to why I didn’t date. There were certainly a few “I told you so’s” when I got engaged. Just to clarify, I was speaking more to the generality of ignoring women’s experiences, not to your specific claim that female friends have been unhelpful in teaching you how to connect with other women. I would probably give equally useless advice to a male friend, but a huge part of that is that I’m not “women”, I’m _a_ woman, and I would especially hesitate to generalize about What Women Want because I am certain I am not Most Women. I am definitely not Most People. I don’t think any Dopers are Most People, but I could be wrong. I can tell you what I look for in a man but everything out my life experience suggests I am an outlier and always have been. This is what I look for, in this order, and always have, _since fourth grade_: 1. Compassion (How do you treat others? Are you aware of your life advantages and privileges? Are you outspoken about injustice? Are you open-minded and empathetic?) 2. Intelligence (Are you capable of making me feel dumb? This never fails to impress me because I’m pretty damned smart. Bonus points if I also make you feel dumb sometimes and you’re willing to admit it. Humility, oh god, so sexy.) 3. Maturity (Do you understand long-term planning? Can you delay immediate gratification for long-term reward? Do you have a sense of responsibility and are you attentive to your obligations? Do you file your taxes on time?) 4. Philosophical Life Orientation (Do you have a general manifesto on the meaning of your life? Does it include ameliorating suffering for others? How do you respond to your own suffering?) 5. Sense of Humor 6. Attractiveness, which could mean virtually anything because if you have 1-4, #5 is a given. Also, if you’re super artistic and talented you can be deficient in some of those other things because it appears to short circuit my rationality, but if you’re also an asshole I’ll catch on eventually. Behold, one woman’s secrets revealed! I’m sure this is super generalizable! Good luck! (Seriously, though, many Dopers fit these criteria easily. Turns out I look for the same thing in friends as I do in lovers. If you fit these criteria and you’re still having trouble getting some ass, my unbiased opinion is you need better taste in ass.) ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/335 "2016-03-30T15:12:47Z")
Bonus points if you understand sequential numbering, cuz clearly I don’t! ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/336 "2016-03-30T15:18:48Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Bonus points if you understand sequential numbering, cuz clearly I don’t! A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of jerks and Nice Guys! ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/337 "2016-03-30T15:24:38Z")
> [@P-man](#): > > I don’t doubt that there are women who can and do give their male friends good advice, but I don’t remember getting any. Shrug, the only time I’ve given advice on dating to a male friend it was to my brother. He was going on about this chick in his class he liked, “she likes me, she likes me not”, and I said “ask her. Don’t ask a daisy, don’t ask her friends, don’t ask her sister, ask _her_.” Later he thanked me for the advice so at least in his opinion it was pretty good. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/338 "2016-03-30T15:41:44Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Just to clarify, I was speaking more to the generality of ignoring women’s experiences, not to your specific claim that female friends have been unhelpful in teaching you how to connect with other women. I would probably give equally useless advice to a male friend, but a huge part of that is that I’m not “women”, I’m _a_ woman, and I would especially hesitate to generalize about What Women Want because I am certain I am not Most Women. I am definitely not Most People. I don’t think any Dopers are Most People, but I could be wrong. I can tell you what I look for in a man but everything out my life experience suggests I am an outlier and always have been. This is an important point, and one that frequently gets ignored in these discussions. Many people assume that they - or they in combination with a few other like-minded posters in the same discussion - represent The Voice of the People, and can speak on behalf of everyone in their gender/ethnic/whatever group. In reality there are a lot of people who fit these categories out there, many of whom have different opinions, and you don’t hold a trump card in being one member of that group. But even beyond that, I think it’s not correct to always assume that what people tell you they want is really what they’re attracted to (this goes for both men and women). As an extreme example, it seems to be pretty widely accepted that there are some women who are attracted to abusive partners. For whatever reason - psychohistory, whatever - it makes no difference to this point. What’s significant here is that if you ask these women “what are you looking for in a spouse?” none of them will answer “I’m looking for a guy who will smack me around when he’s in a bad mood”. But yet, it happens. In some subtle way, there’s some aspect to the abusive-type personality that these people find attractive on some level. And the same goes, to one extent or another, for a lot of other things. Now that doesn’t mean that women’s voices on what they find attractive should be ignored. But it does mean that it’s not necessarily the final word. If there’s a general consensus among women that such-and-such is what they find attractive, and if you look around at the world and see that such-and-such does not in fact seem to be a successful approach in attracting women, then it’s worth taking that into consideration, and it’s possible that there may be more to the story than what these women are saying. [And again, it goes without saying that the same applies in reverse, when it’s men talking about what they find attractive in women. You would be foolish to just ignore that, but you would also be foolish to ignore what you see happening in the real world.] ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/339 "2016-03-30T15:47:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > As an extreme example, it seems to be pretty widely accepted that there are some women who are attracted to abusive partners. For whatever reason - psychohistory, whatever - it makes no difference to this point. What’s significant here is that if you ask these women “what are you looking for in a spouse?” none of them will answer “I’m looking for a guy who will smack me around when he’s in a bad mood”. But yet, it happens. In some subtle way, there’s some aspect to the abusive-type personality that these people find attractive on some level. There’s a place I often get a breakfast sandwich from, and I really like that sandwich. Unfortunately, the sandwich comes with a flatbread that they stick these seeds in. I really hate the seeds, but I really like the sandwich. I even stopped getting the sandwich for a while because the seeds were annoying. But eventually, I missed the sandwich, and I’ve mostly just stopped noticing the seeds. It doesn’t actually mean I like the seeds. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/340 "2016-03-30T15:51:40Z")
Exactly. What’s your point? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224.md?page=18)