# "Nice Guys" vs. Decent, Albeit Clueless, Men **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 17, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224 "2016-03-17T00:52:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/21 "2016-03-17T07:04:29Z")
‘Nice Guys’ as in Nice Guy Syndrome are in some ways, psychopaths - _ **it’s all about me and why women won’t seem to let me put my penis in them, even though I did all the things that should make a woman let me put my penis in her.** _ Women are essentially vending machines for sex/gratification for these people - and they can’t understand why the vending machines won’t serve them. Borderline cases probably just need to learn to understand and accept that other people are people. I’m not sure there’s any hope for the more extreme examples, as the behaviour is either self-reinforcing (making it hard to escape) or pathological (and is going to happen anyway). ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/22 "2016-03-17T08:05:30Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > ‘Nice Guys’ as in Nice Guy Syndrome are in some ways, psychopaths - _ **it’s all about me and why women won’t seem to let me put my penis in them, even though I did all the things that should make a woman let me put my penis in her.** _ > > Women are essentially vending machines for sex/gratification for these people - and they can’t understand why the vending machines won’t serve them. > > Borderline cases probably just need to learn to understand and accept that other people are people. I’m not sure there’s any hope for the more extreme examples, as the behaviour is either self-reinforcing (making it hard to escape) or pathological (and is going to happen anyway). I don’t think it’s that. It’s more like cognitive dissonance: 1. Nice Guy is taught at a young age that being polite, generous, kind, friendly, etc. will make people like him. And this is indeed true…in \*most \* social situations. 2. Nice Guy is polite, generous, kind, friendly, etc. to women, not realizing that this is a situation with different rules - it’s confidence, strength, charm, and unpredictability that wins, not niceness. 3. Nice Guy sees irresponsible, rude, selfish, even violent jerks get the girls while Nice Guy is repeatedly rejected, and is mystified…this doesn’t make sense! (Not realizing that’s it’s because the bad guys have charisma, confidence, strength, unpredictability and aren’t particularly invested in any one woman). At this point, some other complicating factors need to be mentioned: 1. Yes, “opposites attract,” but usually only in certain pairings. Good women often are attracted to bad men. Bad men often are attracted to good women. BUT…Good men are usually NOT attracted to bad women, and bad women are usually NOT attracted to good men. 2. _Some people are attracted to bad traits, period_ - it’s as if “bad is good.” 3. Bad guys usually know more than good guys, are more experienced than good guys, understand women better than good guys. So there’s that. 4. Success in dating increases one’s confidence, which increases one’s success, which increases one’s confidence, which increases one’s success. Failure in dating decreases one’s confidence, which decreases one’s success, which decreases one’s confidence, which decreases one’s success. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/23 "2016-03-17T08:13:18Z")
Also, people aren’t science formulas. In chemistry, you can add Chemical A to Chemical B and get Compound C. Every. Single. Time. Without exception. In dating and relationships, a man or woman can do \*everything \* the “experts” advise, the self-help books say, logic and common sense dictates…and still not be attractive. Conversely, some people can flout every “rule” and still be attractive. People aren’t math equations, chemical formulas or logical proofs. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/24 "2016-03-17T09:47:42Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I don’t think it’s that. It’s more like cognitive dissonance: > > 1. Nice Guy is taught at a young age that being polite, generous, kind, friendly, etc. will make people like him. And this is indeed true…in \*most \* social situations. > > 2. Nice Guy is polite, generous, kind, friendly, etc. to women, not realizing that this is a situation with different rules - it’s confidence, strength, charm, and unpredictability that wins, not niceness. > > 3. Nice Guy sees irresponsible, rude, selfish, even violent jerks get the girls while Nice Guy is repeatedly rejected, and is mystified…this doesn’t make sense! (Not realizing that’s it’s because the bad guys have charisma, confidence, strength, unpredictability and aren’t particularly invested in any one woman). I think this is pretty well put except that I’d frame your first point in slightly stronger terms even, in that politeness, willingness to commit, generosity, kindness, unselfishness, loyalty are held out to be desirable traits \*specifically \* for romantic situations. And to a significant majority of women those just end up making you a bland, uninteresting sort of bloke. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/25 "2016-03-17T11:15:18Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Also, people aren’t science formulas. > > In chemistry, you can add Chemical A to Chemical B and get Compound C. Every. Single. Time. Without exception. > > In dating and relationships, a man or woman can do \*everything \* the “experts” advise, the self-help books say, logic and common sense dictates…and still not be attractive. Conversely, some people can flout every “rule” and still be attractive. > People aren’t math equations, chemical formulas or logical proofs. QFT. It’s often considered one of the major differences in the psychology of the genders – boys being either by nature or nurture led towards mechanical type pursuits, they become accustomed to expecting process=result predictably. But this does not work that way. And that includes the advice of “experts” in the “seduction :rolleyes: community” about trying a different process – it’s still step-following. While at it, :rolleyes: again just for such a daft title, who the hell would want to refer to themselves that way… ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/26 "2016-03-17T11:20:57Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > I think this is pretty well put except that I’d frame your first point in slightly stronger terms even, in that politeness, willingness to commit, generosity, kindness, unselfishness, loyalty are held out to be desirable traits \*specifically \* for romantic situations. And to a significant majority of women those just end up making you a bland, uninteresting sort of bloke. Like opening doors for people, there is an enormous difference between those who do it as a general principle and those who do it as part of a role. We can tell, when those things are a put-on. ---
**Author:** ![kiz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7feea3/32.png) [@kiz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kiz)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/27 "2016-03-17T11:26:04Z")
I’ve always had tons of nice guy friends – very sweet, socially awkward, funny, the whole bit. I always seemed to end up dating them because we’d eventually both mistake friendship for love. I seemed to pick up on this much sooner and would break things off, which meant that 9 times out of 10 the friendship would also go kaput. One thing I’ve noticed in my adult life is a lot of these nice guy friend types end up with Type A conquer-the-world-make-six-figures women. Interpret that as you will. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/28 "2016-03-17T11:44:26Z")
Look into something like Toastmasters. They don’t really need to _ **be** _ relaxed and confident, they need to appear to be. A lot of life is about appearance and style, not only in adolescence. > [@Velocity](#): > > … > Interestingly, this seems to be a mostly male phenomenon. There aren’t as many “I’m a good woman but men don’t want me” women. Because they just assume they’re not thin enough. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/29 "2016-03-17T12:17:59Z")
“Nice” (as self-defined) often equates to “terminally dull”. > [@Velocity](#): > > Interestingly, this seems to be a mostly male phenomenon. There aren’t as many “I’m a good woman but men don’t want me” women. The female counterpart seems to be “I’m a lovely person but every man I get involved with abuses me emotionally and physically”, which equates to “I find this exciting, and enjoy my victim status”. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/30 "2016-03-17T12:54:59Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Interestingly, this seems to be a mostly male phenomenon. There aren’t as many “I’m a good woman but men don’t want me” women. Totally happens to women. Think of the stereotypical “I made this guy dinner and wore my nicest lingerie and met him across town when he asked me at 2 AM…and the jerk doesn’t even call me back. Men are pigs.” And it’s the same problem-- the tricky trait of being “too available”. When you are too available, be it emotionally or time-wise or whatever, people are going to treat that like anything else found in abundance. They are going to use it, but assume it has little value. People aren’t looking to be loved and cherished because they are a man or a woman that happens to be nearby. When people make a huge effort before they properly know you, it’s not flattering because it’s not about YOU as a person. And the ultimate implication is that that person has low standards. And of course, having low standard makes people wonder if there is a good reason for that. Another factor is that people just want different things at different points in their life. The average age of first marriage for women is now 27, and that is even higher for college educated women. Traits that make you a good husband likely don’t mean jack for most women under 25 or so at least, and if you are looking for a serious relationship many women just aren’t going to be looking for that for a while. ---
**Author:** ![skylyn12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@skylyn12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skylyn12)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/31 "2016-03-17T13:03:10Z")
I have found that “Nice Guys” are often “friend zoned” because they attempt to date women who are way out of their league. They are blind to the fact that they’re not a 10 (and/or that being ‘nice’ doesn’t make a 4 a 10). While there are exceptions, people tend to be attracted to people who are similar to themselves (in looks, etc.). So the somewhat homely ‘Nice’ guy who spends his time studying Manga is not likely to be a good fit for the collegiate volleyball player who looks like an ad for Nike. But they (nice guys) don’t seem to get that. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/32 "2016-03-17T13:22:02Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > As a nice guy who’s managed to be married for more than 30 years now, I can decode this for you. > > “There’s nothing actually wrong with you, but I have zero attraction toward you.” > > Of course, this is completely shattering to a teenager (boy or girl) but on the bright side, it’s also nothing personal. Yeah, this can be a part of it. I don’t have any kids yet, but if I had teenage children, I’d try to teach them to be respectful to people they are interested in dating, but to not focus all their energy towards dating. Someone who does things and has things to talk about is more interesting and attractive then someone whose main interest is finding a date. Being nice is a starting point, not the main goal. ---
**Author:** ![lucid-nonsense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2acd7d/32.png) [@lucid-nonsense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucid-nonsense)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/33 "2016-03-17T14:31:37Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > We live in a world that values extroverts over introverts, unfortunately. The extrovert’s virtues become apparent in 10 seconds. The introvert’s virtues become apparent in 10 minutes. Unfortunately, this is a microwave-setting society. The real reason extroverts have more success is because they meet more people. The more people you meet, the more likely it is that you’ll meet someone who likes you back. Of course, blaming basic math isn’t very satisfying… > [@skylyn12](#): > > I have found that “Nice Guys” are often “friend zoned” because they attempt to date women who are way out of their league. They are blind to the fact that they’re not a 10 (and/or that being ‘nice’ doesn’t make a 4 a 10). This. Most often, when people can’t get laid, the problem is unrealistic standards. But usually, they are not blind to the fact that they’re not a 10. They think it’s shallow for women (and only women!) to care about looks. They’re also blind to the fact that men who are nice to attractive women are a dime a dozen. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/34 "2016-03-17T14:52:11Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Look into something like Toastmasters. They don’t really need to _ **be** _ relaxed and confident, they need to appear to be. A lot of life is about appearance and style, not only in adolescence. does this actually ever work? early in my career when people at work were still wasting time trying to see if I could be put on a management track, they sent me to a few of these things. all I could do was fumble through them nervously and count the seconds until I could get the hell out and go home. there’s no class that can turn a shy introvert into an attention-seeker. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/35 "2016-03-17T14:59:32Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > Instruction from women is not the answer. Women often give terrible advice because they often don’t understand themselves what makes them attracted to certain men and not others. The people you want to get instruction from are other men who are good with women. Introduce your sons to the [seduction community.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction_community) All of the “seduction” stuff should be taken with a grain of salt, and some of it is downright creepy and misogynistic, but I read some of it when I was in my twenties and in much the same situation as the OP, and I think it helped educate me in _why_ men (some men, at least) who were “successful” (in various ways) with women were that way. There are things a person can do to make themselves more attractive to the opposite sex (if that’s their preference); for men, many of these things involve attitude, confidence, competence, sense of humor; and they can, to some extent, be learned and practiced and improved, as can the skills involved in meeting women, initiating encounters, getting dates, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/36 "2016-03-17T15:05:19Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > The female counterpart seems to be “I’m a lovely person but every man I get involved with abuses me emotionally and physically”, which equates to “I find this exciting, and enjoy my victim status”. Yes, it’s certainly true. People who are abused are abused because they love it. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/37 "2016-03-17T15:08:53Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > does this actually ever work? early in my career when people at work were still wasting time trying to see if I could be put on a management track, they sent me to a few of these things. all I could do was fumble through them nervously and count the seconds until I could get the hell out and go home. > > there’s no class that can turn a shy introvert into an attention-seeker. I have no experience with Toastmasters, but as I understand it, it doesn’t (necessarily) have anything to do with attention-seeking. To become a good public speaker (for example), you don’t want to develop a “hey, look at _me_!” attitude; you want to develop an “I want to inspire/inform/entertain _you_” attitude. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/38 "2016-03-17T15:13:09Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I don’t think it’s that. It’s more like cognitive dissonance: > > 1. Nice Guy is taught at a young age that being polite, generous, kind, friendly, etc. will make people like him. And this is indeed true…in \*most \* social situations. > > 2. Nice Guy is polite, generous, kind, friendly, etc. to women, not realizing that this is a situation with different rules - it’s confidence, strength, charm, and unpredictability that wins, not niceness. > > 3. Nice Guy sees irresponsible, rude, selfish, even violent jerks get the girls while Nice Guy is repeatedly rejected, and is mystified…this doesn’t make sense! (Not realizing that’s it’s because the bad guys have charisma, confidence, strength, unpredictability and aren’t particularly invested in any one woman). This is a fantastic list! Our media doesn’t particularly help either, as romcoms generally focus on being kind and friendly, but doesn’t particularly say much for the confidence part of it. The idea being that some folks watch these movies or shows and think, I’m just like that guy (though obv far less attractive), why can’t I have his luck! Also, all in all this discussion, which has the potential to go off the rails at any moment, has been quite well done by all participants. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/39 "2016-03-17T15:24:37Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > QFT. It’s often considered one of the major differences in the psychology of the genders – boys being either by nature or nurture led towards mechanical type pursuits, they become accustomed to expecting process=result predictably. But this does not work that way. Yeah. And what makes it even more confusing yet is that some folks - let’s say, “Person A” - can apply Method A towards people and indeed get Desirable Result A much of the time. Almost like a science formula. So, Person B sees Person A’s success with Method A and tries to replicate it - and fails. Why? _Because he/she’s not Person A._ ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/40 "2016-03-17T15:28:05Z")
One piece of advice I would give my own younger self, that might help someone like the OP’s sons: learn how to have fun. Get out, go places, do things—either with friends or by yourself, but they have to be things you _could_ do with another person if and when the opportunity presents itself. This has at least two benefits: (1) Having a life and being a fun, active person make you more attractive, and (2) girls/women want guys who know how to show them a good time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224.md?page=3)