# "Nice Guys" vs. Decent, Albeit Clueless, Men **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 17, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224 "2016-03-17T00:52:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/61 "2016-03-17T18:36:31Z")
> [@JR\_Brown](#): > > Problems with that analogy: > > 1. Food and water have no opinions about being eaten/drunk. Getting someone who is “too desperate” into a relationship, on the other hand, requires the presence of another party, who has to put up with whatever problems the desperate person has. > 2. No-one dies from not being in a relationship. There is no obligation to give lonely people pity dates that parallels the obligation to give starving people food. Sure, but my point is, it’s basically saying, “You want something really badly, therefore I can’t give it to you.” Anyways… I’m off-topic. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/62 "2016-03-17T18:38:13Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Sure, but my point is, it’s basically saying, “You want something really badly, therefore I can’t give it to you.” Or like “We won’t hire you because you don’t have any experience.” Unfortunately, AFAIK they don’t have internship programs for relationships. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/63 "2016-03-17T18:49:59Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Unfortunately, AFAIK they don’t have internship programs for relationships. Ha, you never know these days. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/64 "2016-03-17T19:03:23Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > I think this is pretty well put except that I’d frame your first point in slightly stronger terms even, in that politeness, willingness to commit, generosity, kindness, unselfishness, loyalty are held out to be desirable traits \*specifically \* for romantic situations. And to a significant majority of women those just end up making you a bland, uninteresting sort of bloke. That isn’t it, its that all those things are potential boundary problems - except politeness. They are fine in moderation, what clueless men miss is when they’ve gone from moderation to slightly creepy - particularly in the pre-romantic phase. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/65 "2016-03-17T19:06:39Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > does this actually ever work? early in my career when people at work were still wasting time trying to see if I could be put on a management track, they sent me to a few of these things. all I could do was fumble through them nervously and count the seconds until I could get the hell out and go home. > … > what I meant was more “if having people focusing their attention on me makes me extremely uncomfortable, no class or seminar is going to change that.” I don’t know, I’ve never been through one, it was just a thought. The point was not to learn public speaking, but to gain some degree of social confidence. Another thing would be to take up something they have no talent for, to get used to failure. Life does get easier after you survive a few failures. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/66 "2016-03-17T19:21:52Z")
I think a big part of the problem is that people don’t always really want what they think they want, or at least their priorities aren’t always what they think they are. Most notably, what people think they want is much more shaped by reason and principles, while what they really want (to a greater extent) is often guided by internal and subconscious or semi-conscious emotions. This is true of both men and women. Where this plays out in the “nice guy” phenomenon is that women want guys who are genuinely nice, but they also want men who project “strength” (both emotional and physical) and self-confidence. And men who are too nice come off as obsequious, and this detracts from their perceived strength and self-confidence. And this is where the rug is pulled out from under the “nice guys”. Because the image that many women - and the culture at large, these days - projects is that in our enlightened age women are looking for a guy who is gentle and sensitive etc. And women are not faking it when they talk like that - that’s how they consciously think of their preferences. But the reality is that men who actually conform to that image are going to tend to fall short in subtle intangible ways, on the “strength” scale. So these “nice guys” see themselves - with some degree of justification - as fulfilling what women are “officially” looking for, but not getting anywhere, and this makes them bitter. [Along the same lines, there are a lot of men who don’t admit to themselves the extent to which physical attractiveness influences their preferences. And the same goes for any number of examples. As above, this is an issue for people generally, and not specifically women and “nice guys”.] Unfortunately, I don’t have any real good advice on how “nice guys” can make themselves more popular. Though I would suggest that doubling down to see if being super-dooper-looper nice will finally do the trick is likely to be counterproductive. And lowering expectations might help with the bitterness aspect. ---
**Author:** ![Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4bbf92/32.png) [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heart_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/67 "2016-03-17T19:30:36Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Sure, but my point is, it’s basically saying, “You want something really badly, therefore I can’t give it to you.” > Anyways… I’m off-topic. To me, it’s more like, “You want something really badly, so badly that you’re willing to take this thing from whoever offers it, which means you’re either looking for a very generic thing, or a very specific thing which is completely unrelated to the one I have to offer. Either way, I don’t have the thing you want, therefore I can’t give it to you.” ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/68 "2016-03-17T19:44:01Z")
> [@skylyn12](#): > > I have found that “Nice Guys” are often “friend zoned” because they attempt to date women who are way out of their league. They are blind to the fact that they’re not a 10 (and/or that being ‘nice’ doesn’t make a 4 a 10). That doesn’t ring true at all. Of the people I’ve known who would fit the “Nice Guys” category, they would all tend to rate their appearance as equal to or lower than it really was - they blamed their lack of luck with women on some combination of their appearance and the alleged shallowness of women. (Really their problem had a lot more to do with their personality or behavior.) They were 4’s, 5’s, or 6’s, but would have gladly dated 3’s or even 2’s. It’s easier to blame your failure on something difficult to control (your physical appearance) than it is to admit you’re just not that interesting or exciting or fun. I think this is true of the female equivalent of “Nice Guys” as well. They blame their romantic failures on some combination of being overweight and the alleged shallowness of men. In both cases I don’t see the problem as one of aiming out of your physical league. It’s primarily a problem of behavior and personality. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/69 "2016-03-17T19:45:18Z")
> [@skylyn12](#): > > Sorry, but that sounds exactly like an excuse a Nice Guy would use: "women just don’t get it, I hold the door for them and tip my fedora and they don’t want to sleep with me! Sorry, but this sounds exactly like the justifications “Best Friends” use to try to block any/all relationships that don’t fit into their morning crossword puzzle. "Oh noes, you’re not CUTE/WEALTHY enough to date someone in My™ group of friends. (Trademarked, because you personally Own everyone in that group, body and soul.) So says The Queen Holding Court! Next, should I punish one of my friends for wearing last summer’s blouse? Sometimes your friend isn’t a 10. Sometimes the person interested isn’t a 4. Sometimes MYOB, although the correct answer, isn’t the one other people choose. The Correct answer? Let them ask. Let the person asked say yes or no. Then, Let. It. Go. Everyone has the right to ask. The answer is never “Who are You to Deign yourself Worthy Enough to ask?” The answer is ALWAYS either yes… or its no. If the answer pisses you off, consider brushing your teeth to settle the stress. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/70 "2016-03-17T20:17:51Z")
> [@JR\_Brown](#): > > I disagree entirely. I know a fair number of femme-y guys, and I don’t see them having unusual problems meeting people. I also know a pretty substantial number of women who like femme-y men (and men who like butchy women, for that matter). I would suggest a bigger factor is the guys who are unclear about signalling “I am hanging out with you because we share similar interests” vs “I am hanging out with you because I’m interested in you” This is a good point and a reasonable objection. Let me insert (belatedly) into my other observations: • Boys who are more like girls are more likely to want their friendships to be drawn from the same pool of people that they look to for sexual-romantic relationships, and to fail to see those as different things warranting different processes. • Boys who are more like girls are therefore probably more likely than most people to find the concept of “friend zone” to be incomprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/71 "2016-03-17T20:45:42Z")
Nice Guys and clueless men tend to be fairly young men, and young people in general aren’t exceptionally skilled at romantic relationships. The Nice Guy community likes to complain about how shallow and self-destructive women can be, but there’s never a lot of self reflection on whether they are pursuing compatible women. I know some people already mentioned men trying to date out of their league, which is a pretty similar idea. Personally, I don’t see it as being about trying to date women who are “too good” for them. It’s just that if your pool of potential mates is 15-25 years old, a high proportion of them are going to make counter-productive decisions, or have unrealistic expectations, or have true priorities and preferences that are at odds with their stated priorities and preferences. Or in other words, regardless of your preferred sex, if you’re trying to date young people there’s going to be a lot of trial and error. I think people who consider themselves Nice Guys, or even just clueless men, would benefit greatly from some self-assessment of the type of women they’re pursuing. This would be especially useful considering how often Nice Guys have a “anyone who reciprocates any romantic feelings whatsoever” standard of dating. ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/72 "2016-03-17T20:51:08Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > Sorry, but this sounds exactly like the justifications “Best Friends” use to try to block any/all relationships that don’t fit into their morning crossword puzzle. > "Oh noes, you’re not CUTE/WEALTHY enough to date someone in My™ group of friends. (Trademarked, because you personally Own everyone in that group, body and soul.) So says The Queen Holding Court! Next, should I punish one of my friends for wearing last summer’s blouse? Um…are you operating under the impression that Clueless was a documentary?? 😕😕😕😕 Because I have never known anyone who acted or thought like that, and (having lived in L.A. all my life) I have known some hella shallow people. ---
**Author:** ![Sampsiceramos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Sampsiceramos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampsiceramos)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/73 "2016-03-17T21:10:56Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > This is a good point and a reasonable objection. Let me insert (belatedly) into my other observations: > > • Boys who are more like girls are more likely to want their friendships to be drawn from the same pool of people that they look to for sexual-romantic relationships, and to fail to see those as different things warranting different processes. > > • Boys who are more like girls are therefore probably more likely than most people to find the concept of “friend zone” to be incomprehensible. I would argue that this stems partially from the fact that boys who are more like girls (at the very least in my experience, which of course, caveat emptor, is anecdotal - I count myself as a relatively “girly boy”, for what it’s worth) generally look for something entirely different in their partners than is typical in the otherwise formative years as pertains to ones view on relationships. To be specific, in my experience, boys who are like girls are generally looking for someone that makes them feel comfortable and above all _safe_. Whether the relationship is necessarily exciting is a non-factor, and sexual attraction is as much a result of feeling comfortable with the idea of intimacy with a given person as it is the result of physical attraction. Sex is considered a natural consequence of the primary goal of a relationship, i.e emotional intimacy, rather than the primary goal in and of itself. This leads to a lot of painful and ultimately doomed pining for friends of the opposite sex (or, perhaps even more painfully, friends of the same sex) throughout one’s formative years because friendship closely resembles an indicator of relationship compatibility - and arguably a more pained reaction to rejection because rejection isn’t interpreted so much as a “I am not attracted to you” as it is interpreted as an indictment of character in the vein of “I do not think you would make a good long-term partner”, even if this is in no way what the rejection is meant to imply. Highly anecdotal, of course, and my observations may not necessarily agree with the experiences of others, but it agrees at least generally with my own experiences and the experiences of friends and acquaintances that could similarly be classified as “girly boys” or “nice guys”. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/74 "2016-03-17T21:11:46Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I’ve come across numerous individual stories of this sort: \*“I lacked confidence for the longest time, then I finally met someone who loved me too, and now years later I’m far more confident than before.” \* Seems like, as with many other things in life, the 1st success is immensely important - it gets the boulder rolling down the hill. > > Unfortunately, as is often the Catch-22 case, it’s hard to get success without success. I had the same experience. I didn’t do anything different; I met someone who was looking for someone like me. It was pure dumb luck, being in the right place at the right time. As far as trying to go out of one’s league goes, both my wife and the woman I dated before her were better looking than most of the women who rejected me. It seems that once you become convinced that there’s something about you that is totally unloveable it’s hard to reverse. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/75 "2016-03-17T21:23:41Z")
Many many times (indeed, on this very board!!), people have reacted to feminist content by saying feminist women are just frothing up hate towards men, blaming men, refusing to notice the many ways in which they themselves have created the problems they are complaining about. When actually they’re being very honest in expressing their frustration and anger about _how things are_ — and about men’s participation in that, yes, but mostly identifying the patterns themselves as bad and unnecessary things. Yes, there is a lot of vitriol and woman-blaming being emitted from the Nice Guys™ corner, and I don’t endorse the blaming of women for any of this, but the expression of the anger _itself_ is similarly honest and important and to a major extent overlaps what feminists have been complaining about, themselves — within the confines of male-female dating and courtship dynamics at any rate. I would suggest you folks be in less of a hurry to dismiss Nice Guys™ as whiny little complainers who are simply inadequate, lack social skills, are clueless, etc, and consider the possibility that the complaints may be well-founded. If you’re going to assume built-in differences between the sexes in examining these phenomena, OK fine, do that, but be aware that there’s a lot to be gained by suspending those assumptions. You can’t see sexism in any of its forms if you assume the differences you see are all built-in and none of them elements of social structure instead, none of them things that are set up a certain way and could be set up some other way instead. While we’re at it, if you’re going to assume build-in differences between the sexes, keep in mind that even if that is so, it therefore defines a normative state, from which there are exceptions, and we now live in a world considerably more tolerant of exceptional variations, alternative ways of doing sex and gender and orientation and so forth. What may be true for most men may not be true for males who identified with the girls growing up — not merely that our experience differs but also that the ideal personal solution to the situation may be different for us than for the rest of you. I can now state from experience that there’s a different form of heterosexuality than the one described here: > [@](#): > > most men aren’t attracted to manly women and most women aren’t attracted to womanly men > [@](#): > > women are looking for a guy who is gentle and sensitive etc. And women are not faking it when they talk like that - that’s how they consciously think of their preferences. But the reality is that men who actually conform to that image are going to tend to fall short in subtle intangible ways, on the “strength” scale. So these “nice guys” see themselves - with some degree of justification - as fulfilling what women are “officially” looking for, but not getting anywhere, and this makes them bitter. The _confidence_ thing, on the other hand, is, I think, a prerequisite for any success by people of any gender/sex. But confidence can come from understanding things more clearly. Knowing there’s room for an alternative formulation for getting together with women can build confidence. Reciprocally, that vitriolic hatefulness probably has its roots in the fear that there’s something fundamentally wrong with them, that they’re laughably sexless etc. After all that’s a mainstream depiction we get to contend with. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/76 "2016-03-17T21:39:58Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > It’s just that if your pool of potential mates is 15-25 years old, a high proportion of them are going to make counter-productive decisions, or have unrealistic expectations, or have true priorities and preferences that are at odds with their stated priorities and preferences. Again, though, is that ugly idea that there must be something wrong with the woman, because they want to date the “wrong” person and not you. How hard can it be to just admit that if people aren’t wanting to date you, it’s you who is the common factor? ---
**Author:** ![iljitsch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/77aa72/32.png) [@iljitsch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iljitsch)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/77 "2016-03-17T21:50:47Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > How hard can it be to just admit that if people aren’t wanting to date you, it’s you who is the common factor? Hard. It’s one thing to be unhappy, it’s quite another thing to be unhappy and know it’s your own fault. One thing that hasn’t been mentioned so far (unless I failed to notice) is that many self-identified nice guys put women on pedestals. That’s not sexy and it also doesn’t help make a relationship work. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/78 "2016-03-17T21:53:58Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Again, though, is that ugly idea that there must be something wrong with the woman, because they want to date the “wrong” person and not you. > > How hard can it be to just admit that if people aren’t wanting to date you, it’s you who is the common factor? How hard? Pretty hard, I’d say. For me it was hard to take when I realized that it was my personality rather than my looks that kept me from getting dates. I always had plenty of female friends, but I wasn’t someone many of them would want to date. If they had, I would have been oblivious. I don’t put a lot of stock in Myers Briggs, but my type (INFP) is very rare among males. That supposedly makes it hard for them to find mates. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/79 "2016-03-17T21:59:55Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > On a somewhat unrelated note, I would like to comment that someone getting rejected because they’re “too desperate” is a rather tragic thing, if you think about it. > > Yes, of course - desperation indicates bad mental health or emotional drama and a host of other issues. But it’s like denying someone a glass of water because they’re “too thirsty.” Or denying someone food because they’re “too hungry.” Would you want to host a dinner party for starving people? They aren’t going to care about your excellent cooking or the table you’ve carefully set. They are just looking for a source of raw calories. They’d be just as happy at Golden Corral. If they talk to you at all, it will be because they are trying to figure out how to get you to put more food on the table. You are just a means to an end for them, valued because you are the first source of what they are looking for. When they have had their fill, who knows if they will ever even talk to you again, if not just out of embarrassment for their feeding frenzy. Now, providing a source of food for the hungry might be rewarding as a job or as charity work. But for most people it’s not what they are hoping for from their personal relationships. When you are looking for a partner, it’s really important that you find a partner who is a good match for you, specifically. And desperation makes it hard to tell what is real and what is just because you happened to be nearby. Nobody wants to waste their time and energy on that. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224/80 "2016-03-17T22:25:05Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Or like “We won’t hire you because you don’t have any experience.” > > Unfortunately, AFAIK they don’t have internship programs for relationships. When I was in college only 15% of our school was women, and there were all woman schools in Boston, so we had mixers which were parties to meet people at - basically internship programs for dating. There was a very high probability that a woman you asked to dance was unattached and, if she said yes, interested. If you got her number she was definitely interested. But if you went into a first date expecting to come out of it with a relationship, you were probably going to be disappointed. If needy Mr. meets needy Ms., you might get lucky but the odds are against it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-guys-vs-decent-albeit-clueless-men/749224.md?page=5)