# Nice try, Fotheringay-Phipps. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086 "2009-05-20T16:20:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086/1 "2009-05-20T16:20:56Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > No to the contrary, I considered and weighed all the evidence, in marked contrast to my opponents in these threads - possibly including you, though I don’t recall - who handwaved, along with assorted other tactics of even more dubious value. No, in that thread you consistently said whatever anyone cited that didn’t disagree with you didn’t count. You were just generally a disingenuous fuck, and now you’re trying to rewrite history, The thread in question: [Torture is Most Likely Very Effective - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=515154) Torture is unethical, illegal, immoral, and unAmerican. Also, you’re a liar. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086/2 "2009-05-20T16:24:08Z")
I loved the ‘It’s not my intention to rehash the previous thread, butI was right back there and you were wrong.’ Warmed the cockles of my heart, it did. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086/3 "2009-05-20T16:31:40Z")
Dude’s a troll. Ignore him. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086/4 "2009-05-20T17:18:23Z")
Let’s not forget this little [gem](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=518151). ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086/5 "2009-05-20T17:41:27Z")
It might be worth being familiar with the difference between “such-and-such type evidence needs to be discounted for Reason X” and “anything that doesn’t agree with me doesn’t count”. People who can’t grasp this distinction might have problems with any discussion of issues, since a position generally involves a weighing of conflicting evidence, and people’s opinions tend to correlate with the evidence that they find more compelling. Of course, some people don’t really have a problem with the methodology (even if they understand it altogether) but with the conclusion. When they see a conclusion they strongly dislike it’s time to whip out specious arguments they don’t apply elsewhere, or to [themselves](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11082474&postcount=172). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086/6 "2009-05-20T17:50:23Z")
Y’know, I’d have more respect for a response along the lines of: “Yeah? Well… your mother!” than just heaping on the verbiage. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086/7 "2009-05-20T17:57:50Z")
That would certainly have been more in tune with the OP. But everyone has their style, and you can’t please everyone anyway, so it’s not worth bothering. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086/8 "2009-05-20T18:00:29Z")
Quite of few of the most articulate, insightful, and time-tested members of this board responded to your thread on torture. Getting you to admit that there are any flaws in your argument (to say nothing of your argument actually being riddled with inaccuracies and poor conclusions) is impossible. Before you lecture anyone on the proper way to debate, get your own house in order, you troll. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086/9 "2009-05-20T18:00:36Z")
Excuse me if I occasionally like to be concise. Also, you invented any bullshit reason you needed to discount the mountains of evidence against torture being effective, like that the people needed to have tortured to be credible. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086/10 "2009-05-20T18:07:51Z")
I noted in the OP that someone who says “I only have experience with Method X but I’m sure it’s better than Method Y” is less than completely convincing (especially if others disagree). You can call it what you want. I doubt if you (or anyone else) disagree with this as a general rule. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086/11 "2009-05-20T18:09:24Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But everyone has their style, and you can’t please everyone anyway, so it’s not worth bothering. And if memories were all you sang, I’d rather drive a truck. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086/12 "2009-05-20T18:15:30Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I noted in the OP that someone who says “I only have experience with Method X but I’m sure it’s better than Method Y” is less than completely convincing (especially if others disagree). You can call it what you want. I doubt if you (or anyone else) disagree with this as a general rule. You don’t need to have direct personal experience with torture to know that it doesn’t fucking work, you goddamned jackass. And the ‘others who disagree’ are morally reprehensible, so I don’t attach any credence to their opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086/13 "2009-05-20T18:21:40Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > You don’t need to have direct personal experience with torture to know that it doesn’t fucking work, you goddamned jackass. If you would say it even more forcefully it would be even more true. That’s how it works with these things. > [@](#): > > And the ‘others who disagree’ are morally reprehensible, so I don’t attach any credence to their opinions. Ah, anyone cited who doesn’t agree with you doesn’t count. Now where have I heard that? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086/14 "2009-05-20T18:28:07Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Quite of few of the most articulate, insightful, and time-tested members of this board responded to your thread on torture. I am not all that familiar with the posters to that thread, though I don’t think that thread was an advertisement for many of them. But it makes no difference. The makeup of this board is such that arguments that tend to support torture are not going to find a sympathetic ear from many. There are other boards where “quite of few of the most articulate, insightful, and time-tested members” would hold the exact opposite, and that would be equally meaningless. Saying “everybody here agrees with me” is a shallow argument that betrays weakness, especially in this circumstance. ---
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086/15 "2009-05-20T18:30:02Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Dude’s a troll. Ignore him. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086/16 "2009-05-20T18:31:51Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Ah, anyone cited who doesn’t agree with you doesn’t count. Now where have I heard that? Was it Nazis? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086/17 "2009-05-20T19:18:12Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Ah, anyone cited who doesn’t agree with you doesn’t count. Now where have I heard that? Yourself. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086/18 "2009-05-20T19:33:07Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It might be worth being familiar with the difference between “such-and-such type evidence needs to be discounted for Reason X” and “anything that doesn’t agree with me doesn’t count”. People who can’t grasp this distinction might have problems with any discussion of issues, since a position generally involves a weighing of conflicting evidence, and people’s opinions tend to correlate with the evidence that they find more compelling. > > Of course, some people don’t really have a problem with the methodology (even if they understand it altogether) but with the conclusion. When they see a conclusion they strongly dislike it’s time to whip out specious arguments they don’t apply elsewhere, or to [themselves](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11082474&postcount=172). Θα ήταν ίσως χρήσιμο να γνωρίζουν τη διαφορά μεταξύ του είδους των αποδείξεων πρέπει να αποκλείεται για λόγους X “και” κάτι που δεν συμφωνεί μαζί μου, δεν το κάνουν. "Οι άνθρωποι που δεν μπορεί να λάβει αυτή τη διάκριση δεν μπορεί να έχει προβλήματα με οποιαδήποτε συζήτηση των θεμάτων, από μια γενική εκτίμηση των αποδεικτικών στοιχείων, και τις απόψεις τείνουν να συσχετίζονται με τα στοιχεία που θεωρούν ως πλέον πειστικό. Φυσικά, κάποιοι άνθρωποι πραγματικά δεν έχουν πρόβλημα με την μέθοδο (αν και είναι αρκετά), αλλά με το συμπέρασμα. Όταν βλέπουν ένα συμπέρασμα, που αντιπαθούν έντονα ότι είναι καιρός να μαστίγιο προσχηματικοί επιχειρήματα, δεν εφαρμόζονται αλλού, ή να τον εαυτό τους. Sounds like tortured Greek to me. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086/19 "2009-05-20T19:42:57Z")
Yes, no doubt reason and logic (& intellectual consistency, for Captain Carrot) are overrated anyway. So no need to worry your pretty little heads about that type of stuff. **DOWN WITH TORTURE!!! TORTURERS SUCK!!! YEAH!!!** Sing along, boys and girls … ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086/20 "2009-05-20T19:47:41Z")
_You_ accuse _me_ of being unreasonable, illogical, and intellectually inconsistent? Bye. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nice-try-fotheringay-phipps/497086.md?page=2)