# Nick Spencer, Writer of Nazi Captain America..
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [May 12, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470 "2017-05-12T18:55:43Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2017, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470/41 "2017-05-17T05:05:42Z")
As **Miller** pointed out earlier, you can be fascist without being a Nazi. Which I think is actually a really good point to be making in these times, since everyone keeps trying to equate the two.
---
### Author:  [@TYphoonSignal8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TYphoonSignal8)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2017, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470/42 "2017-05-17T05:43:59Z")
Sure. The second is a subset of the first.
---
### Author:  [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2017, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470/43 "2017-05-17T06:41:30Z")
Not all fascists are Nazis, but Hydra was explicitly designed to be a Nazi stand-in, still having them be around after the actual Nazis were gone. And the entire point of this was to turn Cap into a Nazi. It’s a gimmick, turning him into the one thing he could never be, just to drum up sales. Just like every other time a comic does something like this.
That trivializes things. Not because you made a story. Not because you include a power fantasy or use the comic to get people to enlist. But because it’s a gimmick.
---
### Author:  [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2017, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470/44 "2017-05-17T13:23:43Z")
Yeah, I can’t take anyone seriously who says that the version of Cap headlining Secret Empire isn’t a Nazi because Nazi-Cap SAID he was REPULSED by the Red Skull’s NAZIISM, you GUYS. It doesn’t matter that he totally did exactly the same shit himself! If it walks, swims, flies and quacks like a duck, but beats up another duck, it’s not a duck!
😃
Spoilers are emerging for Secret Empire #2 that might move the needle on Nick Spencer - less Nazi Apologist, more ‘liar, asshole, and hack writer’. There are some reveals that are … ambiguous.
---
### Author:  [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2017, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470/45 "2017-05-17T15:09:13Z")
Pardon me… can I ask a long winded question? (Too bad! I’m gonna, anyway!)
The question: How much of what the Hydra-member Captain America is doing makes him an actual Nazi?
I have not read the comics, so please be patient with me. But I have read about the real life Nazis (as available in the English language, here in the U.S.).
Off the top of my head, here is a list of things that were aspects of the Nazis in 1944:
1. A value system based on the perceived (real or imagined) “ethnic traits” of various different cultures and societies. (This is not a fascist trait. IIRC, Italian and Spanish fascism did not seem to have this value system.) In this case, the “good” or “noble” ethnic “blood” is to be protected
by law, and the undesirable ethnic traits prohibited or suppressed by law. Does Cap do this?
2. A belief in the superiority of fascist ideology (duty to the state or to “the people” is more important than individual freedoms and liberty), especially over communism/bolshevism. (The German, Italian, and Spanish fascists all played up the communist boogeyman trope.) Does Cap do this?
3. Cult of personality, were the national party IS the state, and the leader of that party IS the party. (Hitler far exceeded Mussolini and Franco in this department.) Does Cap encourage a cult of personality?
---
### Author:  [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2017, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470/46 "2017-05-17T15:12:21Z")
1. Iconography is especially prevalent in fascism. Symbols, flags, military parades, radio addresses and plays, patriotic movies, martial music, all serving as a constant reminder to the people about their duty to the movement. Does Cap engage in iconography?
---
### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470/47 "2017-05-17T17:35:39Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#):
>
> You mean besides the Hail Hydra salute which has always been the stand-in for Heil Hitler?
> Or the Hydra Youth?
> Then if you want to go with general fascism?
> [http://pm1.narvii.com/6380/e099861bdfda4255745e88221cc9372f0a8483d4\_hq.jpg](http://pm1.narvii.com/6380/e099861bdfda4255745e88221cc9372f0a8483d4_hq.jpg)
> Without any context, I think just about anyone would know that the guys in green represent a fascist regime.
You said he used Nazi iconography. The Hydra salute isn’t Nazi iconography. “General fascism” isn’t Nazi iconography. “Hydra Youth,” as near as I can tell, isn’t even a thing in Marvel comics.
So, I guess that’s a “no” on him using Nazi iconography, then?
---
### Author:  [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470/48 "2017-05-17T19:14:10Z")
> [@mlees](#):
>
> Pardon me… can I ask a long winded question? (Too bad! I’m gonna, anyway!)
>
> The question: How much of what the Hydra-member Captain America is doing makes him an actual Nazi?
>
> I have not read the comics, so please be patient with me. But I have read about the real life Nazis (as available in the English language, here in the U.S.).
>
> Off the top of my head, here is a list of things that were aspects of the Nazis in 1944:
>
> 1. A value system based on the perceived (real or imagined) “ethnic traits” of various different cultures and societies. (This is not a fascist trait. IIRC, Italian and Spanish fascism did not seem to have this value system.) In this case, the “good” or “noble” ethnic “blood” is to be protected
> by law, and the undesirable ethnic traits prohibited or suppressed by law. Does Cap do this?
>
> 2. A belief in the superiority of fascist ideology (duty to the state or to “the people” is more important than individual freedoms and liberty), especially over communism/bolshevism. (The German, Italian, and Spanish fascists all played up the communist boogeyman trope.) Does Cap do this?
>
> 3. Cult of personality, were the national party IS the state, and the leader of that party IS the party. (Hitler far exceeded Mussolini and Franco in this department.) Does Cap encourage a cult of personality?
Well, as to #1 and #2, he’s putting Inhumans in Concentration camps in the name of the safety of the public. So that checks the racist and authoritarian checkboxes. 🙂 He’s chosen a different boogeyman more suited to the modern era.
---
### Author:  [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470/49 "2017-05-17T19:17:02Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#):
>
> Yeah, I can’t take anyone seriously who says that the version of Cap headlining Secret Empire isn’t a Nazi because Nazi-Cap SAID he was REPULSED by the Red Skull’s NAZIISM, you GUYS. It doesn’t matter that he totally did exactly the same shit himself! If it walks, swims, flies and quacks like a duck, but beats up another duck, it’s not a duck!
Also Marine le Pen can’t be a bigot! Cause she kicked her Dad out of their political party for bigotry. She couldn’t possibly lie or have an ulterior motive! 🙂
---
### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470/50 "2017-05-17T20:48:50Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#):
>
> Also Marine le Pen can’t be a bigot! Cause she kicked her Dad out of their political party for bigotry. She couldn’t possibly lie or have an ulterior motive! 🙂
Because I like a comic more than you do, I’m an apologist for a real-world fascist?
Nice. Glad I wasted my time trying to have a conversation with you.
---
### Author:  [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2017, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470/51 "2017-05-18T13:08:59Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Because I like a comic more than you do, I’m an apologist for a real-world fascist?
>
> Nice. Glad I wasted my time trying to have a conversation with you.
**I never said that, and I never implied it.** Just illustrating a problem with a common defense of this version of Captain America by citing a real-world example. Nazi-Steve taking out Nazi-Red Skull doesn’t mean he’s not a Nazi. (Even if he \*says \*he did it because of the Nazi ideology). The argument is bogus, and Le Pen is a great real-world point to prove that.
Boy, you are really, really defensive on this one. Why the personal investment?
---
### Author:  [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2017, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470/52 "2017-05-18T13:11:22Z")
[http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/news/138239-showing-nick-spencer-is-sticking-to-original-plan-secret-empire-adds-extra-issue.html](http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/news/138239-showing-nick-spencer-is-sticking-to-original-plan-secret-empire-adds-extra-issue.html)
The Outhousers are speculating that this announced tenth issue arose out of Marvel furiously backpedaling on the story, but, to be far, Marvel has had real trouble keeping mini-series to their announced lengths lately. Maybe they should hire someone who can count pages? 😃
---
### Author:  [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470/53 "2017-05-18T17:28:14Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> You said he used Nazi iconography. The Hydra salute isn’t Nazi iconography. “General fascism” isn’t Nazi iconography.
>
> So, I guess that’s a “no” on him using Nazi iconography, then?
Wow. Your argument is really going to rely on “its not exactly the same so…”
> [@Miller](#):
>
> “Hydra Youth,” as near as I can tell, isn’t even a thing in Marvel comics.
…Yeah. It is.
> **[Marvel's Teen Heroes Take On The Hydra Youth In First Look At Secret Empire:...](https://bleedingcool.com/comics/marvels-teen-heroes-take-hydra-youth-first-look-secret-empire-uprising/)**
>
> Continuing to lay out a solid case that Hydra are not Nazis, Marvel released a first look at Secret Empire: Uprising #1 today, which features our first
---
### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2017, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470/54 "2017-05-18T22:20:31Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#):
>
> **I never said that, and I never implied it.** Just illustrating a problem with a common defense of this version of Captain America by citing a real-world example. Nazi-Steve taking out Nazi-Red Skull doesn’t mean he’s not a Nazi. (Even if he \*says \*he did it because of the Nazi ideology). The argument is bogus, and Le Pen is a great real-world point to prove that.
Fair enough, I misread your intention in that post. Let me explain to you why that’s a stupid comparison.
When Marine le Pen says she’s not a Nazi, she’s doing it for the consumption of the voting public of France, whom she is hoping to convince to support her. The motive for her to lie about it is obvious.
In the comic in question, when Captain America says he’s not a Nazi, he’s saying it in private, to one individual, whom he immediately kills. His motivation to lie in this circumstance is… what exactly?
Sorry, I’m not sure why I’m asking you, as you haven’t read the book, have you?
> [@](#):
>
> Boy, you are really, really defensive on this one. Why the personal investment?
You don’t think I’m justified in getting a little defensive when you post [something like this?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20213205&postcount=44)
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#):
>
> Wow. Your argument is really going to rely on “its not exactly the same so…”
Look, when you say, “Uses Nazi iconography,” I expect to see some Nazi iconography. If, by “Nazi iconography,” you mean, “Guys in high-collared jackets,” you should probably say that, instead.
> [@](#):
>
> …Yeah. It is.
> [Marvel's Teen Heroes Take On The Hydra Youth In First Look At Secret Empire: Uprising](https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/05/05/marvels-teen-heroes-take-hydra-youth-first-look-secret-empire-uprising/)
“Hyrda Youth” isn’t a thing in Marvel Comics. It’s a term one blog writer used to describe a single panel in an unreleased comic book.
---
### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470/55 "2017-05-18T23:45:08Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> You don’t think I’m justified in getting a little defensive when you post [something like this?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20213205&postcount=44)
…well you did just finish posting this:
> [@Miller](#):
>
> In such a circumstance, I hope to be able to put up a more coherent defense of my reaction than the blogs you’ve linked to.
You’ve made it pretty clear you are going to dismiss any contrary opinions here. If you are going to post condescending posts, then don’t be surprised that you get hit by a bit of snark.
> [@](#):
>
> In the comic in question, when Captain America says he’s not a Nazi, he’s saying it in private, to one individual, whom he immediately kills. His motivation to lie in this circumstance is… what exactly?
He doesn’t believe he is lying. That doesn’t mean, in the eyes of the observer or the reader, he stops being a Nazi. Someone might genuinely believe they are not a jerk. That doesn’t mean they are not a jerk.
---
### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2017, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470/56 "2017-05-19T01:24:06Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> You’ve made it pretty clear you are going to dismiss any contrary opinions here. If you are going to post condescending posts, then don’t be surprised that you get hit by a bit of snark.
That doesn’t strike me as particularly condescending, but maybe that’s my own blindspot. At the very least, I’m not directly characterizing **CandidGamera** ’s argument, the way he directly characterized mine. There may be a good argument for finding this offensive. If there is, it isn’t in any of the blogs he’s linked to so far.
> [@](#):
>
> He doesn’t believe he is lying. That doesn’t mean, in the eyes of the observer or the reader, he stops being a Nazi. Someone might genuinely believe they are not a jerk. That doesn’t mean they are not a jerk.
The thing is, there’s a distinction between, “Nazi” meaning, “evil jerk,” and “Nazi” meaning, “Member of the German Nationalist Socialist Party.” And it’s not a meaningless distinction - particularly in the context of this comic, where there’s a major antagonist who really is (well, “was” - in more than one sense) a member of the German National Socialist Party. The comic goes out of its way to say, “Sure, Steve’s betrayed everyone he knows and loves, and is responsible for the overthrow of democracy and the murder of thousands and thousands of innocent people - _but at least he’s not a Nazi!_”
And somehow this gets interpreted as pro-Nazi propaganda. 😕
---
### Author:  [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2017, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470/57 "2017-05-19T02:12:45Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Th
> The thing is, there’s a distinction between, “Nazi” meaning, “evil jerk,” and “Nazi” meaning, “Member of the German Nationalist Socialist Party.” And it’s not a meaningless distinction - particularly in the context of this comic, where there’s a major antagonist who really is (well, “was” - in more than one sense) a member of the German National Socialist Party. The comic goes out of its way to say, “Sure, Steve’s betrayed everyone he knows and loves, and is responsible for the overthrow of democracy and the murder of thousands and thousands of innocent people - _but at least he’s not a Nazi!_”
>
> And somehow this gets interpreted as pro-Nazi propaganda. 😕
But (and I’m not reading this storyline–I didn’t enjoy the first few issues and quit) wasn’t he recruited as a Hydra agent in the early 1930s before the super-soldier experiment? And therefore, he was a Hydra double-agent during WWII? In which case, if Hydra\* was working with the Nazis, then so was Cap. Right? I mean Cap works for Hydra/Nazis who encouraged or allowed the Holocaust.
Cap was working for and with the Hydra-Nazis who murdered ~16,000,000 people (~7.5 million Jews, about 3.5 million Roma/Gypsies, and others). He was on the Nazi side during this period. Correct? (not a sarcastic question–as I said, I read maybe the first 6 issues, if that, before quitting)
How can Cap possibly be considered anything BUT a goosestepping, seig-heiling Nazi if he worked on their side during WWII?
\*Even if you buy the silly revisionist version that Hydra was an ancient organization that was (at best) all hugs and smiles (and at worst, fascists) until they joined with the Nazis for…reasons
---
### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2017, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470/58 "2017-05-19T02:25:12Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> That doesn’t strike me as particularly condescending, but maybe that’s my own blindspot. At the very least, I’m not directly characterizing **CandidGamera** ’s argument, the way he directly characterized mine. There may be a good argument for finding this offensive. If there is, it isn’t in any of the blogs he’s linked to so far.
… what you probably meant to say was a “good argument” isn’t in any of the blogs “in your opinion.” The argument is there. And it is a good argument in my opinion. You just happen to disagree with it.
And you weren’t rebutting the blog. You were disagreeing with **CandidGamera** ’s opinion. **CandidGamera** was telling you what he/she thought: they weren’t arguing from the POV of any particular blog. There was no need to drop your critique of the blog into the middle of your disagreement. We aren’t arguing objective facts here. These are creative works.
> [@](#):
>
> The thing is, there’s a distinction between, “Nazi” meaning, “evil jerk,” and “Nazi” meaning, “Member of the German Nationalist Socialist Party.” And it’s not a meaningless distinction - particularly in the context of this comic, where there’s a major antagonist who really is (well, “was” - in more than one sense) a member of the German National Socialist Party. The comic goes out of its way to say, “Sure, Steve’s betrayed everyone he knows and loves, and is responsible for the overthrow of democracy and the murder of thousands and thousands of innocent people - _but at least he’s not a Nazi!_”
>
> And somehow this gets interpreted as pro-Nazi propaganda. 😕
[For the record, let’s not forget what Hydra really is.](https://twitter.com/agentsofshield/status/849451227620548608?lang=en) So Hydra isn’t literally the German Nationalist Socialist Party? Well no shit! Hydra are Nazi’s. They have been Nazi stand-in’s since Hydra has been Hydra. If you don’t know what a “stand in” is: that means that they are not “literally the German Nationalist Socialist Party”, but a “stand in” for the German Nationalist Socialist Party. They are functionally identical, but with different names. Someone who betrays everyone he loves, is responsible for the overthrow of democracy and the murder of thousands of innocent people in the name of the “Nazi stand-in” is Nazi enough for me. Even if this fictional character stares me right in the eye and denies it. I don’t care if you choose to give him the benefit of the doubt.
---
### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2017, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470/59 "2017-05-19T06:29:59Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> … what you probably meant to say was a “good argument” isn’t in any of the blogs “in your opinion.”
I’m sorry, I’m operating under the assumption that everyone in this conversation understands that art is subjective, and that there are no absolute answers, so I generally don’t feel it necessary to add constant disclaimers about things everyone should already know. If it makes you feel better, mentally append “IMO” to the front of each of my sentences.
> [@](#):
>
> [For the record, let’s not forget what Hydra really is.](https://twitter.com/agentsofshield/status/849451227620548608?lang=en) So Hydra isn’t literally the German Nationalist Socialist Party? Well no shit! Hydra are Nazi’s. They have been Nazi stand-in’s since Hydra has been Hydra. If you don’t know what a “stand in” is: that means that they are not “literally the German Nationalist Socialist Party”, but a “stand in” for the German Nationalist Socialist Party. They are functionally identical, but with different names. Someone who betrays everyone he loves, is responsible for the overthrow of democracy and the murder of thousands of innocent people in the name of the “Nazi stand-in” is Nazi enough for me. Even if this fictional character stares me right in the eye and denies it. I don’t care if you choose to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Since we’re stating the obvious now, should I point out that Captain America not a real person, and my opinion of what’s going on in the comic is based on my interpretation of the author’s intent, and not an indication of how trustworthy I think the character is?
Also, Hydra isn’t a stand in for the Nazis in the Marvel universe. The Nazis themselves are the Nazis in the Marvel universe.
**Fenris** : That’s… a really good point. Hmm. I’ll have to think about that one.
---
### Author:  [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2017, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470/60 "2017-05-19T06:44:44Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#):
>
> [http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/news/138239-showing-nick-spencer-is-sticking-to-original-plan-secret-empire-adds-extra-issue.html](http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/news/138239-showing-nick-spencer-is-sticking-to-original-plan-secret-empire-adds-extra-issue.html)
>
> The Outhousers are speculating that this announced tenth issue arose out of Marvel furiously backpedaling on the story, but, to be far, Marvel has had real trouble keeping mini-series to their announced lengths lately. Maybe they should hire someone who can count pages? 😃
Given that the same happened for Secret Wars and Civil War II, I’d say it’s just a simple matter of the author asking for some additional pages, and the company looking at how well the title is selling and saying “sure!” But I guess time will tell…
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470.md?page=2)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nick-spencer-writer-of-nazi-captain-america/786470.md?page=4)