# Nietschze: The Anti-American Philosophy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2010, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733 "2010-02-20T04:20:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733/1 "2010-02-20T04:20:35Z")
Was the philosophy of Friedrich Nietschze the antithesis of “Americanism”? [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy\_of\_Friedrich\_Nietschze](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_Friedrich_Nietschze) “Americanism” professes human equality, democracy, optimism, and (to most Americans) the existence of God. Nietschze’s philosophy of course touts the values of an aristocracy of the strong, pessimism, and “God Is dead” philosphy. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733/2 "2010-02-20T04:25:06Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > “Americanism” professes human equality, democracy, optimism, and (to most Americans) the existence of God. According to who? As far as I can tell, “Americanism” means plutocracy, the casual exploitation and murder of anyone outsides the borders of America, militarism, the destruction and suppression of democracy whenever it proves inconvenient, bullying, submission to authority, the admiration of greed and ruthlessness; the loathing of compassion and fairness. I’ll grant you the God part though; America’s religiosity is one it its major defects. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733/3 "2010-02-20T04:29:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > According to who? As far as I can tell, “Americanism” means plutocracy, the casual exploitation and murder of anyone outsides the borders of America, militarism, the destruction and suppression of democracy whenever it proves inconvenient, bullying, submission to authority, the admiration of greed and ruthlessness; the loathing of compassion and fairness. I mean the idealistic version of Americanism: propounded by Thomas Jefferson and continued by Abraham Lincoln and Franklin Delano Roosevelt. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733/4 "2010-02-20T04:32:19Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > “Americanism” professes human equality, democracy, optimism, and (to most Americans) the existence of God. Nietschze’s philosophy of course touts the values of an aristocracy of the strong, pessimism, and “God Is dead” philosphy. Well, you can manufacture a sharp philosophical antithesis between pretty much any two positions if you define the two positions selectively enough. Your definitions of “Americanism” and “Nietzsche’s philosophy” leave out a number of potential similarities between them, such as individualism, the importance of ambition and the drive to achievement, belief in human progress and perfectibility, and self-fulfillment. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733/5 "2010-02-20T04:35:28Z")
I don’t think “Americanism” equates with human equality. The ideal is that everyone should have equal opportunities not that everyone will always remain equal. People should be allowed to rise or fall to the level of their abilities. The result would resemble an “aristocracy of the strong”. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733/6 "2010-02-20T04:51:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > According to who? As far as I can tell, “Americanism” means plutocracy, the casual exploitation and murder of anyone outsides the borders of America, militarism, the destruction and suppression of democracy whenever it proves inconvenient, bullying, submission to authority, the admiration of greed and ruthlessness; the loathing of compassion and fairness. > > I’ll grant you the God part though; America’s religiosity is one it its major defects. :Sigh: The reality is that there is not one philosophy, nor is one philosophy a perfect antithesis of the other. The equality & justice is the morality of the masses. After the fashion of Nietzsche’s term “slave morality” we can call this “sucker morality.” The douchebag principles are the morality of the rulers. “Master morality” after Nietzsche’s term, or, since power means not having to be sorry, sometimes just no morality at all. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733/7 "2010-02-20T05:01:20Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > The equality & justice is the morality of the masses. Since when? All I see is the masses cheering the plutocrats and tyrants on and grovelling before them. One of the distinguishing features of America, is America is the nation when the powerful can abuse the less powerful, and the less powerful think it’s just fine. Forget “Don’t tread on me”; this is the nation of "Thank you sir, may I have another! _\< whack \>_ " ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733/8 "2010-02-20T06:37:42Z")
**Der Trihs** , you say that the less powerful think that it’s just fine to be abused. Would you give some examples of that? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733/9 "2010-02-20T06:45:02Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Was the philosophy of Friedrich Nietschze the antithesis of “Americanism”? > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy\_of\_Friedrich\_Nietschze](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_Friedrich_Nietschze) > > “Americanism” professes human equality, democracy, optimism, and (to most Americans) the existence of God. Nietschze’s philosophy of course touts the values of an aristocracy of the strong, pessimism, and “God Is dead” philosphy. In essence, Nietzsche’s philosophy is a form of romanticism, the antithesis – rather, **an** antithesis – of humanism and modernity. The idea of a religious basis of society (regardless of the religion in question) is also antithetical to it. See [“Which Civilisation?”](http://www.newamerica.net/publications/articles/2001/which_civilisation) by Michael Lind, _Prospect,_ 10/25/01: > [@](#): > > [T]he most important civilisational divide – one that seems even more important after the events of 11th September – may be the one between supernatural civilisations and secular civilisations. The divide is roughly, but not completely, correlated with the divide between pre-modern agrarian societies and industrial societies. Of the supernatural civilisations, the most significant have been the Abrahamic (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) and the Indic (Hinduism and Buddhism). The two major Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Islam, conquered most of the world’s territory and people, including south Asia and the Americas. Only China and Japan, among the major non-western nations, escaped Muslim or Christian rule. Today Muslim theocracies like Afghanistan, Iran, Sudan and Saudi Arabia are the most extreme examples of societies based on supernatural religion. > > On the secular side of the civilisational divide, there have been three major traditions: humanism, rationalism and romanticism. These three traditions originated in Europe but now have adherents around the world. All three are essentially secular worldviews which do not need to invoke the authority of divine revelation or mystical gnosis (though some romantics are mystics or pantheists and some humanists have been religious believers). In respects other than their common secularism, the three traditions are fundamentally different from one another. > > Humanist civilisation crystallised in Renaissance Italy, before spreading to the Netherlands, Britain, and the US. This liberal, commercial, increasingly democratic civilisation has spread to other nations by emulation (Lafayette’s France, Atatork’s Turkey, Yeltsin’s Russia) and by conquest and conversion (post-1945 Germany and Japan). Humanists seek to ameliorate the problems of social life with the guidance of practical wisdom, derived chiefly from history, literature and custom, with little or no reference to supernatural religion or natural science, with the possible exception of the emergent sociobiology. Humanists tend to be modest as philosophers and cautious as reformers. Examples of great humanist thinkers and statesmen are Petrarch, Erasmus, Bacon, Montaigne, Voltaire, Franklin, Hume, Burke, Smith, Hamilton, Jefferson and Madison. > > Rationalism, a world view underlying a number of secular creeds, first crystallised in 17th and 18th-century France. Rationalists reject the humanist distinction between practical wisdom and natural science. The goal of rationalists of all kinds is to devise a science of society, modelled on natural science, which can serve as the basis for the construction of a “rational” social order. Stephen Toulmin makes a useful distinction between the “reasonableness” of Renaissance humanists and the “rationality” of Enlightenment philosophes. The rationalist pantheon includes social engineers like Condorcet, St Simon, Comte, Fourier, Bentham, Marx, Lenin and Ayn Rand. (The “secular humanists” who support world federalism and utopian social reform are really rationalists). > > Romanticism, the third major secular world view, has spread widely from its original homeland, late 18th and early 19th-century Germany. Romantics reject both reasonableness and rationality, they exalt the inspired unreason of the artistic genius, the child, the primitive uncorrupted by civilisation. Rousseau, Emerson, Wagner, Nietszche and Frantz Fanon should be on a list of romantic prophets, and idealist philosophers like Kant and Hegel arguably are closer to romanticism than to humanism or rationalism. > > The American revolution, and the French revolution in its constitutional phases, were humanist. The French terror and the Bolshevik terror were rationalist. The second world war was a struggle of three secular civilisations: humanism (Roosevelt and Churchill), rationalism (Stalin) and romanticism (Hitler). The war by Islamic radicals against the US, Europe and Israel is, among other things, a conflict between religious and humanist civilisation. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733/10 "2010-02-20T17:43:06Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **Der Trihs** , you say that the less powerful think that it’s just fine to be abused. Would you give some examples of that? The 2004 election comes to mind… The OP gets Nietzsche’s philosophy hilariously, predictably wrong, too. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733/11 "2010-02-20T18:53:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > According to who? As far as I can tell, “Americanism” means plutocracy, the casual exploitation and murder of anyone outsides the borders of America, militarism, the destruction and suppression of democracy whenever it proves inconvenient, bullying, submission to authority, the admiration of greed and ruthlessness; the loathing of compassion and fairness. > > I’ll grant you the God part though; America’s religiosity is one it its major defects. Not all of us are like your characterization of us by any means, Der Trihs. Some of us…a significant number…despise the playground bully aspect of our nation’s character every bit as much as you do…and we truly effort to try to change our national direction in that regard. In fact, some of the people with whom you disagree strongly in this forum may be more on your side in that particular issue than with (what you see as) the general perception of the American people. I despise the many speeches our leaders make that end with “…and may god bless the United States of America”, Der Trihs, but I despise the “…we are the world’s only super power” bullshit even more. I think Barak Obama is a decent person and a reasonable leader…but when he does either of those things, I cringe. In any case, there IS a greater good for humanity that we…and the citizens of way too many other nations…seem unwilling to acknowledge in any meaningful way. If you are saying we are Americans are major players in that kind of conduct…I say AMEN. However, many of us are working on it…and we at least like to be acknowledged as not part of the other rabble. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733/12 "2010-02-20T19:00:02Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Was the philosophy of Friedrich Nietschze the antithesis of “Americanism”? > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy\_of\_Friedrich\_Nietschze](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_Friedrich_Nietschze) > > “Americanism” professes human equality, democracy, optimism, and (to most Americans) the existence of God. Nietschze’s philosophy of course touts the values of an aristocracy of the strong, pessimism, and “God Is dead” philosphy. Outside of Wikipedia, where have you gained knowledge of Nietschze and his teachings? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733/13 "2010-02-20T22:48:42Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > One of the distinguishing features of America, is America is the nation when the powerful can abuse the less powerful, and the less powerful think it’s just fine. Forget “Don’t tread on me”; this is the nation of "Thank you sir, may I have another! _\< whack \>_ " Well, there aren’t just two moralities either. I am from a somewhat “conservative” GOP district, I am familiar with what you speak of. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733/14 "2010-02-20T22:55:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The OP gets Nietzsche’s philosophy hilariously, predictably wrong, too. I thought this, but I really don’t know much about Nietzsche. (I do, however love the work of [Robert Hewitt Wolfe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nietzschean_(Andromeda)). :)) ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733/15 "2010-02-20T23:01:43Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I mean the idealistic version of Americanism: propounded by Thomas Jefferson and continued by Abraham Lincoln and Franklin Delano Roosevelt. If I recall correctly, Jefferson was not exactly a paragon of human equality, and Lincoln’s personal views on white and black people were not exactly the kind of thing that would get him elected today. I’m not sure you’ve selected the best examples of proponents of “human equality” there. Beyond that, i’d be interested to know why you’ve picked FDR in particular as an examplar. What did he do, that other Presidents of the century did not do, to make him a proponent of human equality, democracy, optimism and the existence of God? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733/16 "2010-02-20T23:10:07Z")
I don’t accept that there is any such philosophy or ideology as “Americanism.” Neither Jefferson or Lincoln were religious by the way. Both totally rejected Christianity. Jefferson was a deits, at best, who did not believe in a god who interacted with the univers. Lincoln was highly skeptical, very critical of Christianity, and may well have been an atheist himself, though he occasionally mouthed theistic platitudes when speaking publicly. The founding fathers certainly didn’t believe in equality either. I guess you could say that certain ideologies have been present in American culture, such as it is (individualism, capitalism, free expression), but none of them are unique to America or Americans, and none of them were opposed by Nietschze. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733/17 "2010-02-21T00:28:58Z")
You may want to be very careful with Nietschze, as his philosophy is filled with extremes. Kinda like Ayn Rand, cept he was a real philosopher. Nietschze was an atheist, but used that atheism as a call to personal responsibility to make the world a better place for its own good and as its own merit. Anyway, I would dispute that being an American posits a belief in God. The Constitution does not mention God a single time and specifically prohibits a religious test for office, the establishment of religion or the interference with religion. While some of the founding fathers were certainly religious and Christian, like John Adams, others had no opinion on the existence of God, most notably George Washington who referred to Providence. Note, however, that since Washington was a Mason, he affirmed a belief in a supreme being at least once in his life. His lifelong actions indicated he was non-religious in nature. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733/18 "2010-02-21T03:05:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The 2004 election comes to mind… > > The OP gets Nietzsche’s philosophy hilariously, predictably wrong, too. It’s easy to get wrong. Nietzsche was one of most memorable of writers, but not one of the clearest. Philosophers ever since have been puzzling over just what he was driving at. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733/19 "2010-02-21T03:08:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The 2004 election comes to mind… > > The OP gets Nietzsche’s philosophy hilariously, predictably wrong, too. Maybe because he has him confused with some guy named “Niet_schz_e.” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733/20 "2010-02-21T07:31:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It’s easy to get wrong. Nietzsche was one of most memorable of writers, but not one of the clearest. Philosophers ever since have been puzzling over just what he was driving at. Thing is, he gave good soundbite - so the things people get out of him: “God is dead”, “I give you the Overman” "And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. " are entirely devoid of their context. Nietzsche’s philosophy is a lifetimes study, preferably in the original, not something to be understood from some badly-translated quotes. Like all the myriad subtleties involved in _Übermensch_ that aren’t there in the English translations. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietschze-the-anti-american-philosophy/529733.md?page=2)