# "nigger" vs "the n-word" in discussions of the word itself **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2010, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312 "2010-08-15T06:50:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312/21 "2010-08-15T17:31:22Z")
> [@NineToTheSky](#): > > Surely it’s as much the intent as the word. The way the OP used the word ‘nigger’ is clearly inoffensive. But using euphemisms like n----- or f— is just silly. Either you know what the dashes represent - in which case, why not actually spell out the word, or you don’t - in that case, the whole exercise ends up being meaningless. I use “nigger”, n-----, in print to avoid any possible accusation that I’m a racist. Not because I genuinely have some altruistic sense of deliberately avoiding offending my fellow man. If that were the case, you would never see me posting in the pit. If only Dr. Laura used the “n-word” instead of “nigger”. ---
**Author:** ![percypercy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@percypercy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/percypercy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312/22 "2010-08-15T17:45:38Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > > “N-word” is a dumb phrase and I decline to use it. > > Except you just did. It’s kind of silly to discuss the use of the phrase “N-word” and not actually use the phrase “N-word”. > > /meta I think N-word gives the word far more meaning than nigger. I won’t use it in conversation, and I imagine that’s what Bryan intended. Now if someone(usually a news commentator) uses the phrase N-word, I’m not likely to say the word nigger instead if I’m asked to repeat what they just said. -Lil ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312/23 "2010-08-15T17:47:02Z")
> [@descamisado](#): > > Especially when there is an ongoing discussion about race, cultural practices, etc., it is important to deal frankly; in this case, by dealing directly with the word. Otherwise, what is the point of the discussion and to what extent are the goals of moving beyond such words being served if we shy away from the crux of that discussion. I wouldn’t say those who substitute the hyphenated word are juvenile but they sure seem to be unready and unwilling to wade fully into such an “air-clearing” discussion. The OP is not about renaming Conrad’s work as the _N-word of the ‘Narcissus’_, but in discussing the term as a racial slur. I found this second paragraph of your comment particularly interesting. What about my preference for the term “N-word” means I am unwilling to have an “air-clearing discussion” and what is it exactly about race relations that requires such a discussion? What context requires a thorough discussion of the N-word in order for individuals and our society to be able to get over our current societal issues with race? I don’t think there is one at all just to give you my opinion. I also think that somebody who spends a shitload of time worring about N-word versus nigger instead of the discussion at large is probably not going to progress our understanding of racism very far at all. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312/24 "2010-08-15T17:57:38Z")
I tend not to use certain words because they seem to represent hatefulness. That said I think it’s easy to asign too much power to words and there’s a difference between choosing not to use them and being afraid of them or outraged at their every utterence. They are only wordsw after all. I learned some time ago to disconnect myself from the language others use toward me. They only reveal something about themselves. Sometimes the word faggot will be used as an insult but since there’s nothing the least bit insulting about being refered to as a homosexual it’s really not an insult at all and only reveals the ignorence and small minded attitude of the user. Lacking violence it only invokes pity from me. There’s no need for outrage if you have no reason to value that person’s opinion. When it comes to giving words too much power I agree with Lenny Bruce. > [@](#): > > “Are there any niggers here tonight? Could you turn on the house lights, please, and could the waiters and waitresses just stop serving, just for a second? And turn off this spot. Now what did he say? “Are there any niggers here tonight?” I know there’s one nigger, because I see him back there working. Let’s see, there’s two niggers. And between those two niggers sits a kike. And there’s another kike— that’s two kikes and three niggers. And there’s a spic. Right? Hmm? There’s another spic. Ooh, there’s a wop; there’s a polack; and, oh, a couple of greaseballs. And there’s three lace-curtain Irish micks. And there’s one, hip, thick, hunky, funky, boogie. Boogie boogie. Mm-hmm. I got three kikes here, do I hear five kikes? I got five kikes, do I hear six spics, I got six spics, do I hear seven niggers? I got seven niggers. Sold American. I pass with seven niggers, six spics, five micks, four kikes, three guineas, and one wop. Well, I was just trying to make a point, and that is that it’s the suppression of the word that gives it the power, the violence, the viciousness. Dig: if President Kennedy would just go on television, and say, “I would like to introduce you to all the niggers in my cabinet,” and if he’d just say “nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger” to every nigger he saw, “boogie boogie boogie boogie boogie,” “nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger” ‘ **til nigger didn’t mean didn’t mean anything anymore, then you could never make some six-year-old black kid cry because somebody called him a nigger at school**.” ---
**Author:** ![Turble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Turble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turble)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312/25 "2010-08-15T17:59:02Z")
Close your eyes so you can’t see it and pretend real hard it doesn’t exist – that way it can’t hurt you. Get everybody else to close their eyes too, and the problem is gone. You burn a few books, you erase a bit of history, change a few words here and there, and the world is a perfect place. I don’t understand why people are making it so difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312/26 "2010-08-15T18:04:37Z")
I sometimes say the whole word and sometimes say “the N-word.” It depends on what kind of tone and context I’m using. When I use the circumlocution, it’s not because I’m worried that people will think I’m a racist. That’s a load of crap. It’s just that it’s a word with a lot of shock value, and sometimes it’s gratuitous or unnecessary in certain contexts. It’s same as how I don’t have a problem saying “fuck” most of the time, but if I’m having dinner with my in-laws, I might talk about Joe Biden “dropping an F-bomb” instead of saying the word fuck. It’s not more adult, or more honest or more frank to say the entire word, “nigger” at all times. Sometimes it’s just tacky. If it’s really that important to you to say the whole word, then, by all means, knock yourself out. I really don’t care. I don’t get the supercilious condescension for those who don’t enjoy saying it, or who sometimes feel that it’s not appropriate for all contexts, though. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312/27 "2010-08-15T18:59:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I sometimes say the whole word and sometimes say “the N-word.” It depends on what kind of tone and context I’m using. When I use the circumlocution, it’s not because I’m worried that people will think I’m a racist. That’s a load of crap. It’s just that it’s a word with a lot of shock value, and sometimes it’s gratuitous or unnecessary in certain contexts. It’s same as how I don’t have a problem saying “fuck” most of the time, but if I’m having dinner with my in-laws, I might talk about Joe Biden “dropping an F-bomb” instead of saying the word fuck. It’s not more adult, or more honest or more frank to say the entire word, “nigger” at all times. Sometimes it’s just tacky. If it’s really that important to you to say the whole word, then, by all means, knock yourself out. I really don’t care. I don’t get the supercilious condescension for those who don’t enjoy saying it, or who sometimes feel that it’s not appropriate for all contexts, though. Those different types of speech (you switch between depending on the current social setting) are called [linguistic registers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_(sociolinguistics)) > [@](#): > > a register is a variety of a language used for a particular purpose or in a particular social setting. We do this all the time without a second thought. “Nigger” just isn’t in most people’s formal register; so we use “N-word” when we switch in formal settlings… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312/28 "2010-08-15T19:11:30Z")
Quoth **Napier** : > [@](#): > > I avoid using the word in any way. > … > Saying the word IS using it. Only in the sense that any reference to the word is using it. The sentence “I avoid using the word.” is the same as the sentence “I avoid using ‘nigger’.”. Both have the same intended meaning and the same perceived meaning, and after all what language is is just a way of transmitting meaning. For the same reason, if someone said “I was walking down the street and saw three N-words coming the other way, so I crossed the street so I wouldn’t have to get too close to them, because you know how they are”, substituting “N-word” for “nigger” didn’t really make the sentence any less racist. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312/29 "2010-08-15T19:36:56Z")
No, “I avoid saying the f-word” is not the same as “I avoid saying ‘fuck.’” The circumlocution actually does provide a linguistic and social buffer. That’s why people do it. Your hypotheical anecdote is still offensive not because the circumlocution is really equivalent, but because it’s being used disingenuously. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312/30 "2010-08-15T20:19:45Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Part of the issue is that I have run into white people who just can’t wait to break it out in a discussion about the word, or about literature that uses the word. I can just tell that they really really want to say it in public. Creepy, isn’t it? I’ve seen that on this board, where a bunch of white people will jump on an excuse to start throwing “nigger” around, HA HA HA. One of the Mel Gibson threads devolved that way until it felt more like some people just really, really want to say nigger in public and are looking for reasons to. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312/31 "2010-08-15T21:00:11Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > > [@madmonk28](#): > > > > Part of the issue is that I have run into white people who just can’t wait to break it out in a discussion about the word, or about literature that uses the word. I can just tell that they really really want to say it in public. > > Creepy, isn’t it? I’ve seen that on this board, where a bunch of white people will jump on an excuse to start throwing “nigger” around, HA HA HA. One of the Mel Gibson threads devolved that way until it felt more like some people just really, really want to say nigger in public and are looking for reasons to. Call it creepy if you like. Assume they are all white people which is probable. but as far as I’m concerned, if your observation is correct it tells me two things. 1. You believe that white people just want to use that word. You have no scientific evidence therefore you rely on your own inclinations and projecting that on others. If its creepy, you are creepy. Count me in as one who refrains but is so inclined to challenge social mores. I don’t think its creepy. I think it is simply natural. 2. If true, I believe it is motivated (in a majority of cases) by the inclination to challenge social taboos. This is not without precedence. Many here, certainly my generation feel a certain liberation by using the pejoratives cunt, fuck, motherfucker, bitch, …liberally. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312/32 "2010-08-15T21:13:00Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > [@jsgoddess](#): > > > > Creepy, isn’t it? I’ve seen that on this board, where a bunch of white people will jump on an excuse to start throwing “nigger” around, HA HA HA. One of the Mel Gibson threads devolved that way until it felt more like some people just really, really want to say nigger in public and are looking for reasons to. > > Call it creepy if you like. Assume they are all white people which is probable. but as far as I’m concerned, if your observation is correct it tells me two things. > > 1. You believe that white people just want to use that word. You have no scientific evidence therefore you rely on your own inclinations and projecting that on others. If its creepy, you are creepy. I got a telemarketing call at work once. The person wanted me to supply them with the serial number from the copier or some such thing and I said, “This is some sort of scam.” “You’re a scam!” she yelled, then hung up. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312/33 "2010-08-15T21:27:47Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > You believe that white people just want to use that word.[.quote] > She didn’t say this. She said she gets the feeling that the white people who eagerly jump into discussions abouyt the word to defend it seem like they just want an excuse to use it. She didn’t generalize it all white people. > 2. If true, I believe it is motivated (in a majority of cases) by the inclination to challenge social taboos. What would be the goal in challenging the social taboo against calling black people “niggers?” This is a taboo that should be challenged why? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312/34 "2010-08-15T21:42:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What would be the goal in challenging the social taboo against calling black people “niggers?” This is a taboo that should be challenged why? I would have thought that you of all people would have understood my point. I would never, or be inclined to call any black person a nigger unless it was clear to the object that I was being friendly and assuming liberties that only a longstanding friend could legitimately assume. I do challenge the social taboo in so far that it is limited to cases where no offence is clearly indicated. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312/35 "2010-08-15T21:47:55Z")
I don’t believe a taboo exists if it’s clear that no offense is intended. There is no significant social taboo that I’m aware of in saying the word to talk about it or to quote someone else. Whatever offense that may generate is still less than the taboo in saying the word “fuck” to talk about it or quote someone else. Under FCC standards, it’s not forbidden to say the word “nigger” under any circumstances or in any context. Racial epithets, even when intended purely as racial epithets, are legal on public airwaves. The word “fuck” is NEVER legal, even when quoting someone else or discussing the word as a word. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312/36 "2010-08-15T21:53:15Z")
> [@Xenocrates](#): > > I have two questions. Why do you think that people continue to use “the n-word” to refer to the word “nigger” instead of just mentioning the word “nigger” in the first place? Do you think that in serious discussions of/involving the word we should say “the n-word” or “nigger?” Words have power. Or, I should say, words have the power that we ascribe to them. Nigger is one of three words that as part of my enculturation I was taught were taboo to utter. I think a lot of people are shy about using it no matter the context because it is such a powerful word. That said, if I am giving an academic presentation and I am quoting someone I would not say Senator Tillman of Arkansas said “Those ‘n-words’ are not capable of understand and living under normal Anglo-Saxon laws.” I would quote him directly. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312/37 "2010-08-15T22:12:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t believe a taboo exists if it’s clear that no offense is intended. Has anyone ever called you a racist ? You have to be very very clear to avoid social condemnation > [@](#): > > There is no significant social taboo that I’m aware of in saying the word to talk about it or to quote someone else. Whatever offense that may generate is still less than the taboo in saying the word “fuck” to talk about it or quote someone else. That is not my experience on this board. > [@](#): > > Under FCC standards, it’s not forbidden to say the word “nigger” under any circumstances or in any context. Racial epithets, even when intended purely as racial epithets, are legal on public airwaves. The word “fuck” is NEVER legal, even when quoting someone else or discussing the word as a word. FCC standards do not represent average present American social mores. Look at the success of cable televion. Consider how freely we use the word fuck around here amongst educated people in the higher tiers of our society. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312/38 "2010-08-15T22:23:38Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > I don’t believe a taboo exists if it’s clear that no offense is intended. Has anyone ever called you a racist ? You have to be very very clear to avoid social condemnation [/quote] Then be very clear. It’s not hard. > [@](#): > > That is not my experience on this board. Then your experience is different than mine. Can you cite some examples of people being offended or warned for using the word “nigger” in a manner which is clearly not intended as an epithet? [qote] > [@](#): > > Under FCC standards, it’s not forbidden to say the word “nigger” under any circumstances or in any context. Racial epithets, even when intended purely as racial epithets, are legal on public airwaves. The word “fuck” is NEVER legal, even when quoting someone else or discussing the word as a word. FCC standards do not represent average present American social mores. Look at the success of cable televison. Consider how freely we use the word fuck around here amongst educated people in the higher tiers of our society. [/QUOTE] The FCC standards ostensibly are _based_ on public standards, and I still maintain that the use of the word “fuck” is still more socially explosive, regardless of intent, than when the word “nigger” is used (clearly and unambiguously) in an academic manner. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312/39 "2010-08-15T22:32:53Z")
If you want a response, please clean up the previous post. Its giving me a headache ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312/40 "2010-08-15T22:33:42Z")
I won’t use the word nigger because there are people who get offended by the word even if they hear it in a racially neutral context. Some black people just don’t want to hear white people say the word. It’s not juvenile to say “n-word” in public. It’s actually the adult thing to do because you are avoiding action that you know might offend someone. We have all kinds of bullshit social conventions because we don’t want to offend people who are too quick to judge. Why do we say hello to people? Why do we wear suits in a courtroom? It’s all nonsense but people do it because it would be too much trouble to deal with people’s snap judgments if they didn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nigger-vs-the-n-word-in-discussions-of-the-word-itself/550312.md?page=3)