# NIMBY in Phoenix: Church Forbidden to Feed the Homeless **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790 "2009-11-16T17:01:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/181 "2009-11-18T17:13:16Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > [@bup](#): > > > > False. It’s a dick law that targets churches and charity halls. > > My God! A law that targets people who are in violation of a law! Stop the insanity! I know your comment is sarcasm to make an ironic point, but I really don’t get your point. **Bosstone** said the law didn’t target churches and charity halls; it was no different than going after a store in a residential area. That’s not true. The law in question targets churches and charity halls. It’s about charity dining halls. If you’re saying that the law targets exactly those who break the law, that’s circular. If a law made it illegal to be named **Bryan Ekers** , I could make the same claim that it only targets those who violate the law. If you’re saying my calling it a ‘dick’ law is unwarranted, then I think I have more standing to call it a dick law than **Bosstone** has to call it not-a-dick law (which he did). The pretense that it doesn’t discriminate against the poor and hungry is what makes it a dick law - that’s exactly what it does and is intended to do. I think **Bosstone** was under the impression it was just the zoning as a residential area that was being used against them, and that’s not true. It’s specific wording about charity dining halls. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/182 "2009-11-18T17:36:02Z")
> [@bup](#): > > That’s not true. The law in question targets churches and charity halls. It’s about charity dining halls. > > If you’re saying that the law targets exactly those who break the law, that’s circular. If a law made it illegal to be named **Bryan Ekers** , I could make the same claim that it only targets those who violate the law. My point is that the law targets an activity that, whether justifiably or not, is believed to have secondary and undesirable effects. I could buy that churches and charity dining halls were what the people who wrote the law had in mind, but also that the goal was get poeple to stop encouraging the homeless into residential areas, and anything with a similar effect as a charity dining hall would also have come under scrutiny. Your observation was similar to decrying that an anti-murder law was unfairly singling out people who kill others, and something I found worthy of ridicule. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/183 "2009-11-18T18:03:47Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Your observation was similar to decrying that an anti-murder law was unfairly singling out people who kill others, and something I found worthy of ridicule. Even though it was in direct response to the analogous, “It’s not like the law is singling out people who kill”? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/184 "2009-11-18T18:07:34Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Even though it was in direct response to the analogous, “It’s not like the law is singling out people who kill”? Sure, why not? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/185 "2009-11-18T18:11:43Z")
Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/186 "2009-11-18T18:39:33Z")
> [@bup](#): > > [In the actual decision]([http://www.crossroadsphx.com/pdfs/Justice](http://www.crossroadsphx.com/pdfs/Justice) Corcoran’s Decision 11-9-09.pdf) (pdf), the judgment notes that the ordinance specifically targets \*charity \*dining halls, then gives several definitions of charity, all of which note that the receivers are ‘needy’ or ‘poor’. On reading that decision, it appears I’m actually quite correct. It is a zoning ordinance that specifies which establishments are or are not allowed within a residential zone, and charity dining halls are _one of_ the establishments not allowed in residential zones, included for the same reasons a restaurant would be disallowed in a residential zone, I imagine. The whole thing about defining charity is to illustrate why this is different from a simple church gathering. I note that the decision also says “the nearby residents worked with the police” (page 8 of the PDF). That would seem to undercut **mswas** ’ assertion that they should just get the police to handle problems. It looks like they did, and police intervention wasn’t enough. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/187 "2009-11-18T18:40:47Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > We’re not talking about poor people in general, we are talking about a specific group of poor people who have been introduced into a community by a church, and are causing problems that the church refuses to accept any responsibility for. It’s not about rich versus poor, and it’s not about freedom of religion, and portraying the residents of this neighborhood as selfish, callous bourgeois oppressors is monstrously unfair. Well, part of the problem is that we don’t know what the size of the epidemic was. Someone crossed paths with a drunk once, twice, a million times? Someone tagged someone’s mailbox, once, twice, a million times? Someone was sleeping in front of the pre-school, once, twice, a million times? And if these events did not happen on Saturday, how is it the church’s fault? Really we have no information to go on at all. We don’t know how widespread the problem is, how much of that responsibility the church should shoulder, or whether or not a couple of rich assholes got annoyed that they saw a homeless person. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/188 "2009-11-18T23:25:42Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Because an omnipotent, omnipresent, creator G-d who sees and knows all for all of time gives a rat’s patootie if you come to church in blue jeans, folks! Well he certainly knew this decision was coming then. If he failed to plan for it how is it the fault of the planning commission, or the hearing judge, or the people of Phoenix? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/189 "2009-11-18T23:38:18Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well, part of the problem is that we don’t know what the size of the epidemic was. Someone crossed paths with a drunk once, twice, a million times? Someone tagged someone’s mailbox, once, twice, a million times? Someone was sleeping in front of the pre-school, once, twice, a million times? And if these events did not happen on Saturday, how is it the church’s fault? > > Really we have no information to go on at all. We don’t know how widespread the problem is, how much of that responsibility the church should shoulder, or whether or not a couple of rich assholes got annoyed that they saw a homeless person. This is why we have local courts to review the facts and make decisions about such things. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/190 "2009-11-18T23:46:46Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > This is why we have local courts to review the facts and make decisions about such things. Yes, it’s a good thing that justice is infallible. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/191 "2009-11-19T01:13:51Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, it’s a good thing that justice is infallible. If you know of an alternative, don’t hesitate to share. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/192 "2009-11-19T01:14:40Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If you know of an alternative, don’t hesitate to share. I’m allergic to straw, could you please take that out of my podspace? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/193 "2009-11-19T01:55:17Z")
No, because it’s a serious point. If the local courts can’t be trusted to have the best handle on how the local community is affected by an issue, to whom would you defer? Of course injustices can and do happen in local court systems. In the past, the Federal government sometimes sent in troops to maintain order and escort black kids to involuntarily desegregated schools. What’s your suggestion for this case? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/194 "2009-11-19T02:05:12Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > No, because it’s a serious point. If the local courts can’t be trusted to have the best handle on how the local community is affected by an issue, to whom would you defer? > > Of course injustices can and do happen in local court systems. In the past, the Federal government sometimes sent in troops to maintain order and escort black kids to involuntarily desegregated schools. What’s your suggestion for this case? What does it have to do with the topic? You degree with the decision therefore you oppose the judicial system! It’s a straw man. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/195 "2009-11-19T02:23:21Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > What does it have to do with the topic? > > You degree with the decision therefore you oppose the judicial system! It’s a straw man. No, just the judicial system in Phoenix. It’s fairly obvious you don’t like this law and/or how it was applied, and getting a happy little funtime out of tossing out condemnations and such, though at least you had the class to admit your ignorance of what was actually happening. Anyway, I don’t have to make up some exaggerated version of your views. They’re silly enough already. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/196 "2009-11-19T02:24:48Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Anyway, I don’t have to make up some exaggerated version of your views. They’re silly enough already. Then why did you? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/197 "2009-11-19T02:27:42Z")
Sorry, I grew bored of this type of game in elementary school. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/198 "2009-11-19T02:29:06Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Sorry, I grew bored of this type of game in elementary school. Pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Oregon\_sunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/50afbb/32.png) [@Oregon\_sunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oregon_sunshine)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/199 "2009-11-19T03:05:01Z")
I know I’m late to this party, but > [@](#): > > discriminatory and appalling This pretty much sums up my thoughts on this law… In my opinion, it should never be not OK to help and feed people! Geez, they’re people!! ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/200 "2009-11-19T03:18:04Z")
> [@Oregon\_sunshine](#): > > I know I’m late to this party, but > > This pretty much sums up my thoughts on this law… In my opinion, it should never be not OK to help and feed people! Geez, they’re people!! That’s more or less how I feel about it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790.md?page=11)