# NIMBY in Phoenix: Church Forbidden to Feed the Homeless **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790 "2009-11-16T17:01:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![sugar\_and\_spice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@sugar\_and\_spice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugar_and_spice)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/81 "2009-11-16T20:57:18Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Can you post a link to that? I’d like to see it. Because church-going folk certainly do show up for events at 7:30 and the timing of it is indicative of nothing other than the breakfast is hosted at breakfast time. same link as furt posted: [http://www.crossroadsphx.com](http://www.crossroadsphx.com) Click on ‘worship’ and ‘blog’ at the top of the homepage. Also from the ‘outreach’ page: > [@](#): > > Prodigal’s Home - Join us every Saturday morning from 7-9 to feed the hungry. We need help with cooking, serving and cleaning up. I honestly don’t have an opinion on this yet but it seems pretty obvious that this is not a regular service, nor are they trying to pass it off as such. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/82 "2009-11-16T20:57:42Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Well, that pretty much blows the “side effect” argument out of the water. As well as the “it wasn’t their intent” argument. Except for my reading skillz=phail. They were bused in, but by another group -not by the church. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/83 "2009-11-16T20:57:45Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > This is one of those “I never imagined I’d put those words together in a sentence”, but cite that John the Baptist was a schlub? I’ll see what I can do, but he was a homeless person who dressed in skins and lived in a cave. Someone else might be better at just pulling the pertinent quotes than I am. But right now I want to focus on the actual topic. > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Here’s the quote – > > \*The church appealed the citation, saying it is a church and is not operating as a charity dining hall. Church officials maintained that its actions were protected by the First Amendment and the federal Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act. \* What’s unclear about that? They didn’t see what they were doing as operating a charity dining hall. It doesn’t say fuck-all about their intent. It says very specifically what their intent was. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/84 "2009-11-16T20:59:57Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > This is one of those “I never imagined I’d put those words together in a sentence”, but cite that John the Baptist was a schlub? [Mark 1:6](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%201:6&version=NIV). He dressed funny and ate bugs. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/85 "2009-11-16T21:02:43Z")
> [@sugar\_and\_spice](#): > > same link as furt posted: [http://www.crossroadsphx.com](http://www.crossroadsphx.com) > Click on ‘worship’ and ‘blog’ at the top of the homepage. That’s a fancy website, it’s clear that they maintain it and update it regularly. > [@](#): > > Also from the ‘outreach’ page: > I honestly don’t have an opinion on this yet but it seems pretty obvious that this is not a regular service, nor are they trying to pass it off as such. Actually based on your own cites it says specifically that it was a regular service. [http://dottiesdialog.com/](http://dottiesdialog.com/) > [@](#): > > The decision has been made that we are operating as a charity dining hall, and therefore are breaking zoning ordinance. So, to feed the hungry and poor on church property, according to this ruling, is not an allowed function of the church. > > But the process is not over. We can appeal to the Board of Adjustment, and will be able to continue our ministry during this time. > > However, there’s still a lot of questions to be answered. Questions like, How hungry? What about our potlucks? What about our Christmas dinner or Easter Sunrise breakfast? When I eat that, I am pretty hungry…is that allowed? What about the coffee and donuts we serve on Sunday mornings? Can we eat that if we are hungry? And then there is the other question, “How poor?” How poor do we have to be to be considered a “charity?” Federal-poverty-guidelines-poor? Not-able-to-make-the-house-payment-poor? Or, how about not-able-to-pay-off-the-credit-card-poor? Anyone arguing that the church intended it to be a soup kitchen is simply incorrect. There is no reason to read it that way, and at this point arguing for that viewpoint is not equally valid. The stated purpose was ‘to feed the hungry’. I am often hungry when I am awake at 7:30 AM on a Saturday morning, and I have a home. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/86 "2009-11-16T21:05:50Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > What’s unclear about that? They didn’t see what they were doing as operating a charity dining hall. Exactly. \*They \*don’t see it that way. But it says nothing about whether they intended to feed large groups of homeless people, only that they disagree with the characterization as a CDH. > [@](#): > > It says very specifically what their intent was. No, it doesn’t. It simply says that they disagree with the characterization as a CDH. Show me the words that describe what their intent was. > [@](#): > > Anyone arguing that the church intended it to be a soup kitchen is simply incorrect. Isn’t feeding the poor what soup kitchens do? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/87 "2009-11-16T21:07:15Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I doubt you will find any allies on this forum to help you argue that I don’t understand sarcasm. Well, you certainly didn’t understand it in this instance. > [@mswas](#): > > I didn’t attack zoning laws in any way shape or form. I merely said that they are often used as an excuse to enact particular agendas. Well, you said: [QUOTE=mswas] Of course zoning laws are the primary way by which we are atomized and separated from one another to create good little atomized capitalists/socialists. [/quote] That sure looks like an all out attack on zoning laws. There are an awful lot of people who like the feeling of moral superiority they get from attacking others for their supposed callousness to the poor and/or homeless. That appears to be the attitude underlying your posts on this thread. There is no issue of religious freedom here. There just isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/88 "2009-11-16T21:10:44Z")
So if someone starts busing in the homeless to my church on Sundays, and they are snacking on the donuts and coffee - we might get shutdown? Don’t EVER come between a Presbyterian and his coffee & donuts. Trust me on this. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/89 "2009-11-16T21:16:38Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > So if someone starts busing in the homeless to my church on Sundays, and they are snacking on the donuts and coffee - we might get shutdown? It depends on your local zoning ordinances. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/90 "2009-11-16T21:19:37Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Exactly. \*They \*don’t see it that way. But it says nothing about whether they intended to feed large groups of homeless people, only that they disagree with the characterization as a CDH. They clearly intended to feed anyone who came to their door, homeless or not. > [@](#): > > No, it doesn’t. It simply says that they disagree with the characterization as a CDH. Show me the words that describe what their intent was. I did, I posted to the pastor’s blog. > [@](#): > > Isn’t feeding the poor what soup kitchens do? Yes, soup kitchens feed the poor, but not every place that feeds the poor is a soup kitchen. What if every Saturday morning at 7:30 I bussed in a load of homeless people to McDonald’s, I put the entire bill on my American Express card, every Saturday, week in, week out. Does that make McDonald’s a CDH? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/91 "2009-11-16T21:20:43Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > It depends on your local zoning ordinances. Sounds like a good opportunity for some hacktivism. Organize homeless bussing to their church service with the promise of a meal at another location afterward. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/92 "2009-11-16T21:22:05Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Well, you certainly didn’t understand it in this instance. Well, you said: That sure looks like an all out attack on zoning laws. > > There are an awful lot of people who like the feeling of moral superiority they get from attacking others for their supposed callousness to the poor and/or homeless. That appears to be the attitude underlying your posts on this thread. There is no issue of religious freedom here. There just isn’t. :rolleyes: You clearly need ad hominem to make an argument. _shrugs_ Since you cannot argue with the substance of my argument, my attention span is officially closing for the afternoon. Have a nice day. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/93 "2009-11-16T21:36:54Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > :rolleyes: You clearly need ad hominem to make an argument. _shrugs_ Since you cannot argue with the substance of my argument, my attention span is officially closing for the afternoon. Have a nice day. Your argument has no substance. _shrugs_ ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/94 "2009-11-16T21:39:38Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > They clearly intended to feed anyone who came to their door, homeless or not. Where does it say that in the referenced quote? > [@](#): > > I did, I posted to the pastor’s blog. ??? We are talking about the news article. > [@](#): > > Yes, soup kitchens feed the poor, but not every place that feeds the poor is a soup kitchen. What if every Saturday morning at 7:30 I bussed in a load of homeless people to McDonald’s, I put the entire bill on my American Express card, every Saturday, week in, week out. Does that make McDonald’s a CDH? Do soup kitchens charge for their meals? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/95 "2009-11-16T21:41:12Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Where does it say that in the referenced quote? You quoted it, you know where it says it. > [@](#): > > ??? We are talking about the news article. Really, REALLY? You’re not allowing new evidence? You’re really sinking this low? Really? Like for really reals? > [@](#): > > Do soup kitchens charge for their meals? I wouldn’t charge them for the meals. Now go sit in the corner with **Lonesome Polecat** , I want to discuss this with people who are actually interested in the issue and not playing games with process. If you’re going to reject cites that don’t support your assumptions, then this is fruitless. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/96 "2009-11-16T21:42:00Z")
> [@sugar\_and\_spice](#): > > same link as furt posted: [http://www.crossroadsphx.com](http://www.crossroadsphx.com) Thank you for posting that. That, at least, has the reverend’s reaction (with similar questions to mine - can we have a potluck? Can we serve pancakes if they’re \*not \*hungry?), as well as a link to [the actual decision](http://www.crossroadsphx.com/pdfs/Justice%20Corcoran%27s%20Decision%2011-9-09.pdf) (warning: PDF). It looks like the attack of the decision on constitutional grounds won’t work - pretty clearly, the argument that they can’t practice their religion is an…exaggeration, at best. They can take the food to the homeless - they are free to purchase commercial property. At the same time, the sliminess of the city council is sickening. An ordinance that forbids a \*charity \*dining service? Disgusting. Pretending that this is about anything but keeping the icky people away is just a lie. The decision even goes into the definition of charity (helping the homeless and poor) in its defense of why this pancake breakfast has to stop, but the boy scout potlucks and Elk Lodge dinners don’t. No, it’s nothing against the poor and homeless, it’s just \*charity \*(helping the poor and homeless) we’re against. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/97 "2009-11-16T21:45:05Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Thank you for posting that. That, at least, has the reverend’s reaction (with similar questions to mine - can we have a potluck? Can we serve pancakes if they’re \*not \*hungry?), as well as a link to [the actual decision](http://www.crossroadsphx.com/pdfs/Justice%20Corcoran%27s%20Decision%2011-9-09.pdf) (warning: PDF). > > It looks like the attack of the decision on constitutional grounds won’t work - pretty clearly, the argument that they can’t practice their religion is an…exaggeration, at best. They can take the food to the homeless - they are free to purchase commercial property. > > At the same time, the sliminess of the city council is sickening. An ordinance that forbids a \*charity \*dining service? Disgusting. Pretending that this is about anything but keeping the icky people away is just a lie. The decision even goes into the definition of charity (helping the homeless and poor) in its defense of why this pancake breakfast has to stop, but the boy scout potlucks and Elk Lodge dinners don’t. No, it’s nothing against the poor and homeless, it’s just \*charity \*(helping the poor and homeless) we’re against. What was most interesting to me was the Pastor talking about Phoenix’s homeless epidemic. Phoenix is one of the worst hit cities in the entire country by the housing crisis. They overbuilt, and a lot of that overbuilding was shoddy construction that didn’t take the local landscape into account, such as the water table, or even not building sand so that houses wouldn’t sink and crack their foundations as a result. Phoenix is a vile place. I do not wish to live there, ever. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/98 "2009-11-16T21:48:25Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > You quoted it, you know where it says it. The reason you cannot cite it is because it isn’t there. > [@](#): > > Really, REALLY? You’re not allowing new evidence? You’re really sinking this low? Really? Like for really reals? The point in question is whether specific information can be gleaned from the news article, so no, adding a post to someone’s blog is not evidence. For really reals. > [@](#): > > I wouldn’t charge them for the meals. You asked if McDonald’s was a soup kitchen, not you. McDonald’s is charging, per your very own really real words. These are some really real dishonest debate tactics you are using. > [@](#): > > Now go sit in the corner with **Lonesome Polecat** , I want to discuss this with people who are actually interested in the issue and not playing games with process. If you’re going to reject cites that don’t support your assumptions, then this is fruitless. How in the fuck can a cite to a blog support specific claims about what actually appears in a news article? Show me where it appears in the news article. You said it was clear. Then show me. Don’t throw in this bullshit about blogs. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/99 "2009-11-16T21:49:09Z")
There is nothing more to discuss with you. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790/100 "2009-11-16T21:50:33Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Now go sit in the corner with **Lonesome Polecat** , I want to discuss this with people who are actually interested in the issue and not playing games with process. If you’re going to reject cites that don’t support your assumptions, then this is fruitless. You’re the one who’s playing games here. You invoke “freedom of religion” in a vague, general way in utter disregard of the fact that no establishment, not even a church, has the right to be a public nuisance. This is no different than a neighbor throwing noisy drunken parties every week or a bar that attracts a rowdy clietele. Freedom of religion has nothing to do with it. It’s just an excuse for a self-righteous snit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nimby-in-phoenix-church-forbidden-to-feed-the-homeless/517790.md?page=6)